p1394b Working Group Meeting,
June 12, 1998,
,
St. Petersburg Beach, Florida,

chairman:       David Wooten,
		david.wooten@compaq.com

vice-chairman:	Michael D. Johas Teener
                mike@zayante.com

editor:         Eric Hannah,
		ehannah@mipos2.sc.intel.com

secretary:      Richard Churchill,
		richard.churchill@compaq.com

 1. Introductions
 2. Review of Agenda
 3. Review of Minutes
 4. Procedures
 4.1  Voting
 4.2  Prices and Pricing
 4.3  Call for Patents
 5. Old Action Items
 5. Task Group Reports
 5.1  UTP - Colin Whitby-Strevens
 5.2  Upstarts - Colin Whitby-Strevens
 5.3  BPort - Alistair Coles
 5.4  Standard Electrical - Eric Hannah
 5.5  Accelerations - Dave LaFollette
 5.6  Cable/connector - Max Bassler (by Dave Brunker)
 5.7  Simulation - Prashant Kanhere (by Jerry Hauck)
 5.8  PHY-LINK - 
 6. Additional topics
 6.1  Isochronous Resource Allocation and Reallocation
 6.2  1394a Power Distribution
 7. Extra Items
 7.1  Liaison
 7.2  New Task Group - Power Control
 8. Future meetings
 8.1  July, Bath, UK
 8.2  August, Portland, Oregon
 8.3  September, Chicago, Illinois
 8.4  October, Maui, Hawaii
 8.5  December, Monterey Area, California
 8.6  January, TA meeting in Maui, Skip or Newport Beach?
 8.7  February, dependent upon January decisions ...
 9. Action Items
10. Adjournment

[*** Meeting came to order at 1:06 PM ***]

 1. Introductions

    Introductions were largely skipped, since we know most of each other entirely
    too well by now.

 2. Review of Agenda

    Agenda was reviewed, modified and approved.

 3. Review of Minutes

    Minutes of the previous meeting were approved.

 4. Procedures

 4.1  Voting

    Voting rights go to any who is recorded to have attended either of the previous
    two meetings, and is present at this meeting.

 4.2  Prices and Pricing

    We may discuss the prices of things as they are now, but not the pricing of
    now or in the future ... 

 4.3  Call for Patents

    All holding intellectual property rights affecting this standards effort are 
    asked to disclose, and to conform to the IEEE standards and requirements for
    fair and reasonable licensing.

    The question was raised regarding whether a disclosure of a pending patent in
    this group constitutes public disclosure.  Attendees were referred to their
    respective legal departments.

 5. Old Action Items

    Old action items were all completed.

 6. Task Group Reports

 6.1  UTP - Colin Whitby-Strevens

    Slide
    3. Reach Issue
      - may not have a good solution for installed base or expectations
        of cable installation specification groups
      - limitation is both loss budget and passive equalization
      - liaison feedback from cable wiring specification groups?
    4. Crosstalk measurements (Bill Northey)
    5. Other presentations
    6. Review of the current specification and open issues:
      - Eye diagram mask for the transmitter signal at the RJ45 connector
        - based on shorthaul elec spec with an allowance for transformer, etc.
        - min rise time - based on shrt haul elec (still tbd)
      - Jitter budget
        - need simulations and proposal
      - testing
        - infomrative spec

    

 6.2  Upstarts - Colin Whitby-Strevens

    slide
    - Welcome, Introductions, etc.
    - Presentations
    - Open Issues
      - may not need the bias filter (at least during start up)
      - Do not need to do the TpBias phase repeatedly (CWS chance code)
      - need to check that TpBias interval does not cause false p1394a detect
      - experience of Fibre Channel start-up
        - high impedence or static transmitter may produce valid-looking
          signal at the far end
          CWS to ask optical folk to review spec.
      - check the effect of the external p1394a electrical components
        - avoid false TpBias detect from the input biasing on an optical
          transceiver

    [Fiber Channel folks have now decided that they need to solve the
    issues of the optical receivers receiving "tones" and will shortly
    commence weekly conference calls to resolve the problem ownership,
    as well as the approaches to be taken.]

 6.3  BPort - Alistair Coles

    BPort Task Group Report
    1. This meeting:
      - Review of draft chapter
      - content is mostly complete

    2. Propose to merge future activity with the accelerations group
      - facilitate C-Code consistency
    3. Review of Draft needed, with comment on reflector.

    [Wooten - Merging the two task groups is fine with me, but who
    will chair the group?  LaFollette will not be in Bath, so Alistair
    will chair the next meeting.]

    
 6.4  B Low Power - Richard Churchill

 6.5  Accelerations - Dave LaFollette

    Simple Beta Packet Format
    *** diagram ***
    - Assumes DATA_PREFIX and SPEED are present
    - REQUESTs are 
      - BOSS Request status
      - legacy signals (PARENT_NOTIFY, DISABLE, SUSPEND ...)
      - training, operations
    - Padding not shown here

    Discussion Topics
    - Do we need beta concatenated packets?
      - Packet should end with DATA_END or DATA_END_ERR
      - Insert deletable requests for elasticity
      - translate legacy concatenated packets to beta non-concatenated?
      - translate beta packets to legacy concatenated?
    - Max packet lengths?
      - Grow with bus speed?
      - stop at S400 length?
      - <S400 length for beta packets?
    - When do bus resets occur?
      - Always like short bus reset?
      - Anywhere a REQ might otherwise fall?
      - DPISSIDID ... IDIDEI(REQ,ARBRST,GRANT,RESET)IREQ
    - Buffering, PHY Delay
      - buffer 20 ns?  1 incoming character?
      - make arb_delay = PHY_Delay?

    Discussion Topics Continued
    - How long are incoming requests remembered?
      - Until DATA_PREFIX, SPEED, DATA_END, DATA_END_ERR, RESET
    - One or two byte request types?
    - PHY_LINK
      - request types
        - prioirity is not needed
        - next cycle isoch
        - next interval asynch
      - timing
        - requests are okay any time
        - there may not be much idle time between receiving packets
      - requests are not cancelled
        - asynch requests for next interval are automatically upgraded
      - Indications to Link
        - DATA_END_ERR?

 6.6  Cable/connector - Max Bassler (by Dave Brunker)

    Agenda
    - Review and approve minutes of last meeting
    -

    Summary of April-May Minutes
    - Proposal for bulk cable testing methodology passed
      - Forwarded to the secretary to put into Framemaker
        - action item taken by Bill Northey ..

    Agenda for June
    - Presentations planned:
      - Bill Northey - Proposed changes to 1394-1995 connector Contacts
        - Proposed for July meeting
      - AMP ...

    Ongoing Action Items
    - EMI/RFI Baseline test method
      1) Mike Fogg to post test details on web by 6/25/98
      2) Call for test method input
    - Cable detect pin in copper connector
      - Proposal under review
        3) User feedback requested by ALPS ...
    ...

 6.7  Simulation - Prashant Kanhere (by Jerry Hauck)

    Logistics
    - Taskforce will not generally meet as a separate working group
    - Propose that test configurations and results be reviewed within
      Upstarts, Bport, Arbitration, etc., based on focus of interest
    -
    ...

    Participation Ground Rules
    Simulations help solicited
    - Simulations are being performed on a voluntary basis ...
    ...

    Progress Update
    - Connection_status() implemented including
      - activate_connect_detect(int delay)
      - send_tone()
      - singnal_detect ....
    ...

    Issues uncovered
    - Coding nits
      - ...

    Issues uncovered (cont.)
    - Protocol Questions
      - p 121, line 24: Why don't we monitor connection status on a beta
        _mode disabled port?
      - p 121, line 31: Why tone two more times on a new connect?
      - When pmd_tone_on = FALSE, should TpB be floated or driver low?
      - Does signal_detect check for differential 1, 0, or either?
      - ...
    ...

    [There was a discussion of the axioms, etc., for toning, and it was
    noted that there are numerous corner cases that are mildly problematic
    to be dealt with.  We can't detect bias and tone ... ]

    [If there is something sending bias our way, it is a -95 or 'a' thing,
    and we'll eventually figure it out ...]

    <*** Action Item:  Colin agreed to look at all this information if it is posted to the
    reflector. ***>

    Test Configuration
    *** diagram ***
    - Nodes all stay in P0 state for duration of test

    *** slide ***
    *** graph ***

 6.8  PHY-LINK - 

    There is a need for a new chairman for this group.  Much of the work
    remaining is protocol work ...

 7. Extra Items

 7.1  Liaison

 7.2  New Task Group - Power Control - John Fuller

    John made brief comments about the formation of the group.  There are 
    points that must be deferred to the p1394a balloting process in response 
    to the UL and other concerns expressed in balloting.

    [Is this within our scope?  Wooten - Yes.  Colin - I hope this will
    not delay the 'b' standard ...]

 7.3  Differential Mode Delay - Colin Whitby-Strevens

    The GbitEthernet folks have encountered a problem with the fact that the
    different frequencies used in multimode fiber propagate at different speeds
    resulting in a skew that develops over distance between the signals of the
    several frequencies ... It is a property of the aperature, the angles of
    entry into the fiber, and the mode of propagation through the fiber, and is
    related to the problem of dispersion.

    We need to ask the fiber folks to recalculate our numbers for the various
    data rates, and relate the needs for specification to the assorted
    groups involved with affected standards ...

 7.4  ECWG Liaison - Steve Bard

    Steve attended an industry advisory meeting to present regarding 1394 and USB
    issues.  They have since formulated some opinions on the matter, and think this
    is a problem are with regard to safety and regulatory issues.  They have been
    invited to make a presentation at the August Plenary session to present their
    issues.  One of their concerns is that they think we need to define different
    connectors for different safety classes of devices.  (Just what we needed ...
    a new connector selection process ... the connector folks do through good
    receptions.)  They will present at the TA Architecture WG at the next TA, in
    San Jose in July.  We need to ask lots of questions regarding how devices are
    classified, how they are tested, etc. ...

    [For UL 1950, we cannot provide more than 100 VA, right?  Yes.  They do ports
    additively, don't they?  Yes.  We will need to be certain to laugh a lot ...]

 7.5  Fiber Channel - Colin Whitby-Strevens

    Colin Whitby-Strevens informed us that he had been asked to act as the
    Fibre Channel liaison with p1394b.

 8. Future meetings

    Details about the various future meetings are posted as they are made
    available in various locations, including the 1394 TA Upcoming Events
    page (http://1394ta.org/upevents/upevents.html), and the p1394b group
    home page (http://www.zayante.com/p1394b/index.shtml).

 8.1  July, Bath, UK; hosts - Colin Whitby-Strevens and Alistair Coles

    July 13 and 14, Monday and Tuesday, we will meet at the Hilton National
    Hotel, in Bath, UK.  Reservations should be made directly with the hotel
    by calling +44 1225 463 411, or sending a fax to +44 1225 464 393.  You
    must identify yourself as attending the "IEEE Meetings" to obtain the
    preferred room rate (which is substantially lower than the normal rate)
    and to assure that attendee room-nights are created to the group.  Also,
    send confirmation of your participation dates, and your accommodation
    dates, to Colin (colinws@bristol.st.com), so that adequate catering may
    be provided and all attendee room-nights properly credited to the group.

    This meeting is being held in conjunction with the p1394.1 and p1212r
    working groups, which will meet on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday of
    this week.

    For further details, please see the note from Colin at the group web site
    (http://www.zayante.com/p1394b/meeting9807/cws980310-bathmeet.pdf).

 8.2  August, Portland, Oregon; host - Steve Finch

    This meeting will be held in Portland, Oregon, on August 18 and 19, in
    conjunction with the p1394.1 working group, which will meeting on the
    following two days.

    Details are not yet available.  Information will be posted as it is made
    available.

 8.3  September, Chicago, Illinois; host - Max Bassler

    This meeting will be held in Chicago, Illinois, on September 10 and 11, in
    conjunction with the p1394.1, (PCWG ?) and perhaps p1212r working groups,
    which will meet on the previous two days.

    Full details are not yet available, but some interesting possibilities for
    after-hours recreation have been mentioned, so watch for details as they
    become available.

 8.4  October, Maui, Hawaii; host - Farrukh Latif

    This meeting will be held at the Sheraton Maui resort on Kaanapali Beach,
    near Lahaina, Maui, Hawaii, on October 12 and 13.  The p1394.1 and p1212r
    working groups will also meet at the same site on October 15 and 16, with
    one day separating their meetings from the p1394b meetings.

    This is an excellent hotel, with many exceptional features.  Look for full
    meeting details in the near future.

 8.5  December, Monterey Area, California

    We have an offer from Mike Teener to host a meeting in the Monterey Bay
    area during the first week of December.  No details have been worked out,
    so none are available now.  Information will be posted as it is available.

 8.6  January, TA meeting in Maui, Skip or Newport Beach?

    The TA currently plans to meet in Maui in January '99, but the dates are
    not known.  If we can get sponsorship for a meeting in conjunction with
    the TA, and this meeting is late enough in the month, we may choose to 
    co-locate with the TA.  Otherwise, since it is impractical to meet early
    in January (due to the lack of time needed to perform sufficient work to
    justify the meeting) we may wish to accept Brad Saunders' invitation to
    return to Newport Beach in late January or early February.

 8.7  February/March, dependent upon January decisions ...

    Whether we meet in February depends on whether we meet in late January.
    Likewise, when we might meet in 

 9. Action Items

    - Colin agreed to look at all this information if it is posted to the
      reflector.

10. Adjournment

    The meeting was adjourned at approximately 4:40 PM.

===============
Attendance List

Steve Bard
steve.bard@intel.com
503-264-2923

Brad Bickford
brad_bickford@ccm.intel.com
503-696-2499

Charles Brill
cebrill@amp.com
717-810-4642

Dave Brunker
dbrunker@molex.com
630-527-2622

Jim Busse
jimb@ccgate.sj.nec.com
415-528-3810

Don Chambers
chambersd@jae.com
714-753-2600

Dao-Long Chen
dao-long.chen@symbios.com
970-223-5100 x9461

Richard Churchill
richard.churchill@compaq.com
281-514-6984

Dan Colegrove
colegrov@us.ibm.com
408-256-1978


Alistair Coles
anc@hplb.hpl.hp.com
+44 117 922 8750

Wataru Domon
domon@ccm.cl.nec.co.jp
+81 44 856 2082

Jean Jacques Dumont
jdumont@iway.fr
+33 1 29 49 2071

Steve Finch
steve.finch@tus.ssil.com
714-573-6808

John Fuller
jfuller@microsoft.com
425-703-3863

Jerry Hauck
jerry@macrodesigns.com
510-668-1006

Mitsuo Ichiya
ichiya@ca.mew.com
650-938-6639

David Johnson
dkjohnson@ti.com
972-480-3632

Dave LaFollette
dlafolle@mipos2.sc.intel.com
408-765-2587

Heungbae Lee
hblee@asic.sec.samsung.co.kr
+82 331 200 3220

Jun-ichi Matsuda
matsuda@ccm.cl.nec.co.jp
+81 44 856 2082

Jack Merrow
jmerrow@leviton-telcom.com
425-486-2222

James Nave
jim-nave@ti.com
972-480-3468

Jim Nelson
nelson@laya.nrtc.northrop.com
562-948-8357

Takayuki Nyu
new@optsys.cl.nec.co.jp
+81 44 856 2082

Ozay Oktay
ozay_oktay@cissc.canon.com
714-856-7180

Mark Richman
richman@lucent.com
610-712-7456

Kyozo Saito
kyozo_s@gw3.alps.co.jp
+81 229 23 5111

Brad Saunders
bradley.saunders@rss.rockwell.com
714-221-6513

Masood Shariff
mshariff@lucent.com
732-957-5479

Satoshi Takahash
takahash@vdrl.src.mei.co.jp
+81 6 906 4894

Ken Taylor
foken@aolcom
904-427-4311

Sato Tetsuya
tetsuya@sm.sony.co.jp
+81 3 5448 4603

David Thompson
davethompson@lucent.com
610-712-2730

Colin Whitby-Strevens
colinws@bristol.st.com
+44 1454 611500

Jonghwa Won
jhwon@secns.sec.samsung.co.kr
+82 331 200 3353

David Wooten
david.wooten@compaq.com
281-518-7231

Sean Yoshizaki
yosizaki@masca@com
408-342-8654

David Zalatimo
davidz@filanet.com
650-968-9711

Frank Zhao
zhaof@panasonic.com
408-653-4077