P1394b High-speed Long-haul
1:30-~5:00 PM
7 August, 1997
Ala Moana Hotel,
Honolulu, Hawaii

chairman:	Colin Whitby-Strevens
secretary:	Richard Churchill

 1. Welcome and Introductions
 2. Approval of Agenda
 3. Approval of minutes of last meeting
 4. Liaison reports
    4.1  Report from S100 PMD Task Group
    4.2  Report from long-haul PMD, 8/6/97
 5. S800 P1394b Electrical signal integrity issues
    Dave Brunker
    Eric Hannah
 6. Media and Transceiver technologies
    6.1  Contributions on specifications for suitable technologies
    6.2  Identification of issues for further study
 7. Connector Selection
    Tad Szostak
 8. Sub-PHY root contention
    Dave Lafollette
 9. Future plans and schedule
10. AOB
11. Adjourn

 1. Introductions were made for all present, and the tentative agenda was
    presented.

 2. The agenda was approved, with some modification (given as amended above).

 3. Minutes of the previous meeting were approved without objection.

 4. Liaison reports

 4.1  Taka fujimori-san reported on the discussions held in the morning by
    the low-speed long-haul task group.  That report is appended by
    reference to the minutes of that group.  Next meeting is planned for
    Tokyo in September.

 4.2  Colin Whitby-Strevens reported on the discussions held the previous day
    in the joint long-haul PMD meeting.  That report is appended by reference
    to the minutes of that meeting.  Specific items presented included the
    discussion of the properties of a sub-PHY, a decision to recommend to
    the P1394b committee of the whole to select a single optical connector,
    objective of a single media for all speeds (exclusive of UTP cat-5),
    though the option of different media for different speeds was retained
    as an option, and discussion of whys and wherefors of active and passive
    components in the wall and wall-plate.  Further, considerable discussion
    was held upon the relative merits of the two coding schemes under con-
    sideration by the high- and low-speed PMD task groups.

 5. S800 P1394b Electrical signal integrity issues

    Dave Brunker
    (Presentation synopsis here, but complete presentation included in minutes
    by reference to the soft copy available from the group ftp site.)

    - Molex 1394-1995 6 ckt. I/O Connector ONLY Differential Electrical
      Performance

    - Connector Only; Introduction
       - Data presented is for the connector only; no 1394 cable is attached.
       - ....

    - Connector Only Test Fixture
       -
       -
          -
          -

    - Connector only Test Fixture
    *** diagram ***

    - Connector only Test Fixture
    *** diagram ***

    - Connector only Test Fixture
    *** diagram ***

    - Connector only Test Fixture
    *** diagram ***

    Test Conditions; Differential Impedence
    *** table ***
    Load Impedance           	110 Ohm differential (resistive load)

    Source Impedance		110 ohms differential (2x55 ohm PCB)

    Test Risetime (10%-90%)	26ps*, 150ps, 250ps, 500ps*, 1000ps
      (Equipment used was the
      Tektronix 11801b Digital
      sampling Oscilloscope
      with ...

    - SMT/Flat Differential Impedance Results
    *** table ***

    - Through Hole/Upright Differential Impedance Results
    *** table ***

    - Test Conditions; Differential Crosstalk
    *** table ***

    - SMT/FLAT Differential Crosstalk Results
    *** table ***

    - Through Hole/Upright Differential Crosstalk Results
    *** table ***

    - Test Conditions; Differential Risetime Degradation and Propagation Delay
    *** table ***

    - Test Conditions; Differential Risetime Degradation adn Propagation Delay
       - The risetime degradation data was calculated using the 10% to 90%
         levels of the input and output pulse to the connector, where:
             tr1connector = [(tr,DUT+test_system)e2 - (tr,test_system)e2]e1/2

    (Presentation contained 40 slides, total.)
    <<Question regarding common mode crosstalk were raised by Colin, in the
    absence of Taka Fujimori-san, who presented material on a potential
    problem in this area.  The question is specifically with regard to the
    speed signal, with a risetime on the order of 10ns.  This should not be
    a problem, according to Mr. Brunker, who stated that this is well within
    a range in which PHYs will be well behaved.  There is still a need for
    some additional information regarding actual risetimes ... Eric Hannah
    commented to reinforce this contention.  A recommendation for an explicit
    rise time would be greater than 3ns.  However, for the 4-pin connector
    4 conductor, unshielded AV cable, this may be a problem when the cable
    is "long".  Various models for these circumstances, and the need to
    eventually address the associated issues and conduct tests were also
    offered/discussed.  What was mated in the connector?  This was tested
    on a mated connector pair.  There was no cable component, and thus no
    implications with regard to bunched wires, etc.>
    <<Comment made regarding an exception window of 25 ohms for the connector
    as per a previous presentation by Eric Hannah ...>
    <<Jim Skidmore has an open action item to specify the speed-signal timings
    more precisely, and Mr. Brunker was asked to liais with Jim on the issue.
    Dave Johnson (TI) accepted the action item for communicating minimum
    risetime requirements for the p1394a speed signalling.>
    <<The fact that it is difficult to achieve risetimes faster than .5ns with
    real-world cables, etc., was commented upon, and the fact that this will
    simply necessitate some precise wording to avoid confusion.>

    Eric Hannah
    (material previously presented, and included by reference to the
    reflector.)

    - Spice Modeling Differential Pair Transmission Lines
    *** diagram ***

    - Differential Mode ...
    *** diagram ***

    - ....
    *** diagram ***

    - ....
    *** diagram ***

    - ....
    *** diagram ***

    - S400 ...
    *** diagram ***

    - S400 K28.5 over 20 inches + 2 connectors
    *** diagram ***
    *** diagram ***

    - Minimum Rise Time Study
    *** diagram ***
    *** diagram ***
    <<We do have a problem ... We need to fix the connector ...>
    <<Mike Teener - I wouldn't try to use that particular model ...>

 6. Media and Transceiver technologies

 6.1  Contributions on specifications for suitable technologies

    Dan Rausch
    (The was presented at the joint long-haul session the previous day.  The
    presentation is included in these minutes by reference to the minutes of
    that joint session.  Though not all slides were covered in that session,
    all were incorporated in the minutes.)

    <<What are the relative costs you see between this solution and the POF
    solutions previously discussed?  Should be comparable.  At a given baud
    rate, the same active semiconductors are used, and the differences are
    in the lenses, etc.  The ratio should be in the range of sub 2:1.  Colin
    clarified that at a given line rate, there is little or no difference,
    but for a S100/S800 contrast the difference is low.  (This is on the
    "active" components.)  Optical interfaces are typically expensive when
    compared with integrated silicon components.  Colin encouraged people to
    go out and investigate costs on their own.>
    <<Mr. Rausch suggested that those present check with those working on the
    Gbit Ethernet effort to obtain explanation of their findings, etc.>
    <<Discussion of the eye-opening relative the the 3.5 dB allowance for the
    connector was discussed.  Verification of the model is needed for moving
    to S3200 signaling rates.  Comment was that S800 and S1600 are "in the
    bag," but that S3200 is "new territory," though likely accomplishable.
    This presentation is a good starting point, but we will need to further
    clarify on the objectives ... in particular the importance of and for
    S3200 rates.  The set of specification presented should yield the
    following hop lengths for given speeds:
	S3200	100m
	S1600	350m
	S800	600m
    Colin - We agreed on 50m as a requirement, and S3200 as highly desirable.
    The question is also one of the pain involved in interoperability ...
    Dan, if you had been charged to determine the lowest cost solution for
    S800, and not for S3200, what differences would there be in your proposal?
    The result would be different, and cost less, but not necessarily much
    less.  Hard to be specific.  Mike Teener commented on the desire to keep
    costs low on the slower solutions, but maintaining the possibility of
    going to higher rates.>
    <<Want low cost S800, but interoperable with S1600 and S3200, while
    majority of cost of this interoperability goes into the higher speed
    devices. - Colin.  We can recommend a cable plant that is relatively
    low cost, but that will satisfy S3200 speeds, without undue cost to the
    S800 initial solution.  Objective is an infrastructure that supports
    all three of our target speeds, especially as a home or office install-
    ation needs to be "permanent," and not need replacement at short intervals
    such as less than 10 years.  Should we ask for proposals targetted for
    S800?  We should likely ask for comparable studies at S800, S1600 and
    S3200 ... Opinion expressed that we have such studies generated off-line,
    with general table numbers for each, AND leaving the related section of
    the draft blank.  Spec line items are the ones needed, but the entries
    should be left blank.  Editor of the GbE spec. offered to forward needed
    information to the editor of the P1394b standard.>

    Moved (Richard Churchill) Seconded (Mike Teener) that the chair of this
    group and the chair of the P1394b committee develop an appropriate letter
    to establish needed communication with TIA 41.8.2 requesting consideration
    of 50u fiber.  Friendly amendment to include communication with TIA 41.8.1
    body.  Motion passed unanimously.

 6.2  Identification of issues for further study

 7. Connector Selection
    Tad Szostak

    - Connector Selection Criteria
       - Amateur friendly cabling system, economical tools, maintenance, in-
         stallation
       - Scalable from 100 Mb/s to many Gb/s
       - Easy daisy-chainable with splicing capability
       - ONE SOLUTION - Home wiring solution good for 10-20 years with
         transceiver upgrades
       - Direct fiber to PC buldheads from wall-plates to avoid copper EMI
         issues
       - Cabling system cost comparable (no more than 20% premium) to that
         of 100 ohm, UTP (CAT-5)

    Colin Whitby-Strevens

    - Connector requirements
       - Duplex assymetric, unique?
       - Suitable for equipment, dongles and wall-plates
       - low cost (very important)
       - Support speeds up to 4 GBaud
       - low loss (relative criterion) (1.5 dB for all connectors, 2 passive
         connections
       - Standardized or standardization in progress (EIA/TIA/ISO/etc.)
          - select, not invent
       - Simple installation, suitable for domestic applications
          - cable termination for wall plates, etc.
          - amateur installable with simple tools
       - Low to zero maintenance
       - OK to require pre-assembled patch cords
       - Suitable for MMF
          - suitable for POF may be desirable
       - support for eye safety in normal operation

     <<Let's ask how many connector pairs, etc., each proposed solution can
     tolerate ...>

 8. Future plans
    September in Nattick, Mass., on Tuesday the 23rd for next meeting.

<<<<<<<< meeting adjourned at 4:00. >>>>

===============================================================================
ACTION ITEMS
1.  Jim Skidmore has an open action item to specify the speed-signal timings
    more precisely, and Mr. Brunker was asked to work with Jim on the issue.
2.  Dave Johnson accepted the action item for communicating minimum risetime
    requirements for the p1394a speed signalling.
3.  Colin Whitby-Strevens will initiate formal liaison/communication with TIA
    to add 50um fiber to their considerations, since we are addressing signal
    speeds up to 4 Gbps.  Preferred method is via letter from P1394b chair.

===============================================================================
ATTENDEES

Richard Churchill
281-514-6984
richard.churchill@compaq.com

Kazuki Nakamura
+81 8275 3 5320
kazuki-n@dtinet.or.jp

Mark Knecht
408-570-4097
mark_kencht@phoenix.com

Ken Taylor
508-347-3309
ktaylor@bostonoptical.com

Kazuyuki Abe
415-528-5904
kabe@sj-pceg.ccgw.nec.com

Shuntaro Yamazaki
+81 44 856 2082
yamazaki@ccm.cl.nec.co.jp

Dan Rausch
408-435-6689
dan_rausch@hp.com

Alistair Coles
+44 117 922 8750
anc@hplb.hpl.hp.com

Eric Hannah
408-765-4441
ehannah@mipos2.sc.intel.com

James Kuo
408-721-7856
jamesk@galaxy.nsc.com

Jim Busse
415-528-3810
jimb@ccgate.sj.nec.com

Steve Bard
503-264-2923
steve_bard@ccm.jf.intel.com

Ed Cady
503-359-4556
edcady@aol.com

Karl Nakamura
408-433-4516
karln@lisl.com

James Gay
512-891-2218
jimg@oakhill.sps.mot.com

Hamid Shenavai
No phone # given
No email address given

Farrokh Mottahedin
408-324-7934
fmottahe@qntm.com

Reza Moattar
714-508-8731
reza.moattar@tsc.tdk.com

Kenji Watanabe
+81 3 5448 5362
nabeken@sslab.sony.co.jp

Taka Fujimori
+81 3 5488 6353
fujimori@arch.sony.co.jp

Bill Northey
717-938-2119
northewa@bergelect.com

Steve Midford
408-765-8370
steve_midford@ccm.sc.intel.com

Peter Johansson
510-531-5472
pjohansson@aol.com

Rahoul Puri
408-974-8598
rahoul@apple.com

Kazuki Sogabe
+81 6 466 5539
dw750134@jnet.sei.co.jp

Tatsuya Arai
805-522-7958
tatsuyaa@hiroseusa.com

Mike Brown
602-554-3713
mike_brown@ccm.ch.intel.com

Jerry Hauck
408-765-5528
jerry_hauck@ccm.sc.intel.com

David Wooten
281-518-7231
david.wooten@compaq.com

Dave LaFollette
408-765-2587
dlafolle@mipos2.sc.intel.com

Jack Merrow
425-486-2222
jmerrow@leviton-telecom.com

Charles Brill
717-592-6198
cebrill@amp.com

Peter Teng
408-588-5555
pteng@mail.com

Claude Huss
650-237-2366
claude@mew.com

Mike Wang
602-554-8555
mike_wang@ccm.ch.intel.com

Dao-Long Chen
970-223-5100 x9461
dao-long.chen@symbios.com

Michael Johas Teener
408-461-4901
mike@fireflyinc.com

Susuma Morikura
+81 6 906 4896
morikura@isl.mei.co.jp

Takahiro Seki
+81 462 30 6209
seki@lsis.crl.sony.co.jp

P. Mohanraj
602-554-4243
palanisamy_mohanraj@ccm.ch.intel.com

Paul Lind
602-554-3774
plind@sedona.intel.com

Yukio Otobe
+81 44 754 2532
otobe@flab.fujitsu.co.jp

Farrukh Latif
610-712-7546
flatif@lucent.com

Bijit Patel
610-712-2188
patelb@lucent.com

Juan Pulido
512-984-5188
jmpulido@mmm.com

Tad Szostak
512-984-3847
tszostak1@mmm.com

Dave Brunker
630-527-2622
dbrunker@molex.com

Max Bassler
630-527-4490
mbassler@molex.com

David Johnson
972480-3632
dkjohnson@ti.com

Dave Instone
+44 1705 486363
dinstone@uk.xyratex.com