Subject: stds-1394: FW: Minutes 1394 over GigE Meeting 2003 01
Date: Tuesday, March 4, 2003 9:30 AM
From: Henehan, Burke <BHenehan@ti.com>
To: <stds-1394@ieee.org>
Subject:        Minutes 1394 over GigE Meeting 2003 01 

1394 over Gigabit Ethernet Meeting Minutes - January 2003 

Attendees: 
Mike Teener - Apple - teener@apple.com 
Peter Johansson - Congruent SW - pjohansson@acm.org 
Steve Powers - Microsoft - spowers@microsoft.com 
Les Baxter - Avaya - les@baxter-enterprises.com 
Burke Henehan - TI - bhenehan@ti.com 
Bob Welch - TI - eclw@ti.com 
Errikos Tzavaras - Unibrain - met@unibrain.com 
Sam Liu - Newnex - saml@newnex.com 
Kevin Brown - Broadcom - kbrown@broadcom.com 
Salim AbiEzzi - Microsoft - salimabi@microsoft.com 
Richard Thousand - thousand@broadcom.com 
Winston Hung - Initio - winstonh@initio.com 
Bob McWilliams - Initio - bobm@initio.com 
Colin Whitby-Strevens - Apple 

Agenda: 
1.  Introduction: 
2.  Apple position: 
3.  Discuss Market and technology: 
4.  Discuss correct venue for work: 
5.  Start on organization to divide up the work: 

Apple position on justification: 
This is a management priority at Apple.  It is desired in some kind of standards environment but done as fast as possible.

Consumer End equipment maker said external solution OK.  Many consumer equipment makers are doing both Ethernet and 1394.  It will reduce cost and customer can just plug it in and it will work either firewire or Ethernet for connectivity.

Diagram of chip with 1394 + Ethernet + reconciliation logic 

Diagram of start connection with 1394 + Ethernet + IP bridging: Customer just plugs it in and gets connectivity (IP for web and email), if have firewire can do streaming (do 1394 protocol not Ethernet and bridge IP).  Silicon that has 1394b connections and GigE connections to reconciliation layer to connect to 1394 and GMII (Ethernet PHY digital interface).

Apple has efforts underway to get TV guys to put in IP for connectivity.  It also allows for upgrading firmware on machine, as long as security issues are addressed.

Apple advocates wireless, but use wired if you have it.  Need better than 802.11a/b/g. Walk around with iPOD that is wireless connected (802.11 is current plan).

Avaya - Residential perspective is good;  another interest is commercial environment, video apps high speed disks etc.  

HD TV studio would like S1600. 

Can turn direction of 1394b to low level. 
1394b uses the outside pairs for S100.  Ethernet uses pairs 1&2, 3&6 to make sure it did not work with analog telephones.  Can 1394b be changed to match 100baseT?  Ethernet cross-over cables will break 1394 since go 1&2 to 3&6 not 7&8.


What early products are shipping?  Lots of stuff shipping the last 3 years will do either one.  There are also installations that do not have all 8 wires.  There is only 2 pair of cat5 sized wire.

Can we change spec to use 1,2,3,6 instead of 1,2,7,8?.  

Broadcom had major push to shift down to s100 since some cables do not have all 4 pairs.  Need to be able to downgrade automatically - Ethernet wire speed.

Questions that need to be answered: 
Q1  Does it violate crosstalk requirements for 1394b S100? 

Q2  What about CAT5 history with only 2 pairs installed.  -  

Q3.  Who is going to get upset if switch pairs to customers?  

Will there be significant S100? 

Other speeds: S1600?  Pro video 

Who will not 
Europe has been saying s200, Japan has been saying S400. 

STB and DTV wants s100 now.   STB are S400 1394a connectors, some have also put in Ethernet connectors.  Put 1394b into TV for network connectivity.  Use dongles and supply power to power iPOD.

Video content on IP (7.5 stuff) functionality inside switches would help a lot. 

What latency hit can be acceptable through GigE?  Since throughput is so fast - on order of microseconds is OK latency.  How account for fibre latency in transceivers.

Les Baxter:  take opportunity to spec next generation speed. (Cat6)  S1600 over UTP.  

Process:  IEEE or 1394 TA? 
IEEE is much better that it used to be. 
Suggestion that do tech work in IEEE but collocate with 1394 TA meetings. IEEE standards have "more weight". 

Use generic 1394 reflector  1394-stds @ ieee.org 
Study group within IEEE for now: 

Do study group first then move to "1394r" 
Mike T. willing to do editing but not chair.  Looking for temporary chair. 

Projects: 

Functional requirements: 

#1  S800 cat 5 port definition PMD 
reconciliation layer 
connection management  (stuffing and unstuffing) 
802.3 to 1394 interface part of connection management; auto-negotiation; switching modes 
what to do about other speeds? 


#2 Functional requirements specification of switching hub between 1394 & Ethernet 
#2a  IP bridge from 1394 to Ethernet 
Relationships between 1394.1 and Ethernet switch - arbitration domains 
Work in networking WG to get document. 

#3  Do we change S100 1394b.  cable and connector see questions 1, 2, 3 
1394 TA. 


Modify RSC2734 to accommodate bridges 

Socket services interface out of scope of this project. 

Can ARP packets be done? 

Scope include video - allow it but do not specify it (working in CEA today)  Just do IP not isoc yet 

Goal of draft document: complete but not in details , able to be circulated widely in 6 months.  End of July wants a draft.  Would like test parts (even simulations) in 3 months.

Market discussion:  If want to use 1394 as networking architecture for home and studio, CAT5 is it.  Intent to upgrade S100.  People want to see an upgrade path.  Want to move toward less perceived competition between Ethernet and 1394.  Part of getting more people buying into IP networking.

More than 2 HD streams - interesting bursty traffic that will require BW on demand.  Apple says video studios need S800.  Microsoft says machine vision can use S800.  S100 good enough for now but future will require more.  DVD player does not want to recompress.  

Will be a follow on to MOU.  Microsoft went through, requires HDMI if tuner and monitor are separate.  If you want to record if must go out on 1394.  Input interface is HDMI, output is 1394.  There will be a version 2 in work today.  

Need liaison to 802.3 Bob Grove is chair of 802, Mr. Brown goes to 802.3 - will be liaison with 802.3 committee.  

Want to maximize leverage of GigE PHY- minimize any change to the PHY (same bit rate, same PHY, same everything if possible.)  

Burke Henehan & Sam Liu getting back about S100 implementations today. 
Colin WS find someone to investigate crosstalk if acceptable. Across cables and connectors.  Sam Liu will help 

Next time to get together.  

Next meeting Tuesday March 4 at 10:30. 

Make presentations available to Peter to FTP on IEEE site. 


Regards, Burke Henehan