[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: Questions on data transfer and non-arithmetic handling rules

I think that it's important to begin by noting the language in the very first 
sentence of Clause 5:

"All conforming implementations of this standard shall provide the operations 
listed in this clause for all supported arithmetic formats, except as stated 

The important thing to note is that Clause 5 defines a set of operations that 
must be provided by a conforming language implementation.  It does not specify 
how those operations are bound in a conforming language, nor does it proscribe 
a language providing additional operations on floating-point data that do not 
adhere to any clause in the 754 document.

Thus, if a language wants to claim 754 support, it must (among many other 

        - Provide means to convert all supported formats to and from all 
supported integer formats (5.4.1)
        - Provide means to convert all supported formats to and from decimal 
strings (5.4.2)
        - Provide means to convert all supported binary formats to and from 
hexadecimal strings (5.4.3)

A language may provide additional conversions that do not follow the IEEE-754 
rules, so long as the conversions defined in 5.4 are also available.  A 
language may also provide additional arithmetic operations that are not defined 
in IEEE-754, or anything else, so long as there are also bindings that allow a 
programmer to access the functionality specified in clause 5 (and the rest of 
the normative standard).

That said, there may be an impedance mismatch with regard to how the term 
"arithmetic" is used in IEEE-754 and in the COBOL community.  IEEE-754 
specifies a great many operations besides those in the "Arithmetic operations" 
clause.  These are no less a part of the standard, nor is there presence in a 
conforming implementation optional.  For example, in C, 
convertFromHexCharacter( ) for the double format might be bound to strtod, and 
could be used as follows:

        double x = strtod( someUserSpecifiedString, NULL, 16 );

Does any "arithmetic" occur in this expression? To my mind, and according to 
the naming of the clause 5 operations, it does not.  Does this match with your 
(or COBOL's) notion of an "arithmetic context"?  Maybe you consider expressions 
like this an "arithmetic context"; if not, I would argue that your statement 
"this Standard says NOTHING about the handling of such items outside of 
arithmetic contexts" is incorrect, because the standard does require that the 
defined operations be available in such a context.

- Steve

On Apr 30, 2011, at 2:39 PM, William M Klein wrote:

to the list (and Chuck who already knows this),
  As one of (if not the only one) from the COBOL group who is in the "others 
differ " group, I read the initial "scope" and "purpose" clauses of 754 to  
mean that this Standard is intended for "arithmetic" and the primary purpose 
of the "conversion"  sections is for converting from one numeric format to 
another when used in/for arithmetic statements, operations, or functions (and 
for comparisons involving numbers in an arithmetic context).
The title of the Standard,
  "IEEE Standard for Floating-Point Arithmetic"
is something that I have always believed means what it says and says what it 
means, i.e. that this standard deals with the handling of data items (as we 
call them in COBOL) that are defined as one of the formats in this Standard 
WHEN it is used in or for arithmetic.  If a programming language support NON 
arithmetic functionality for numeric items, then this is NOT the Standard 
that says how to do this.  Obviously, in many (probably most) cases where 
there are "similar" functions for the same types of data items one of which 
is arithmetic and one that is not, there is nothing in 754 that says that 
they cannot (much less should not) get the same results.  It is just that (as 
I understand it) this Standard says NOTHING about the handling of such items 
outside of arithmetic contexts.
From: stds-754@xxxxxxxx [mailto:stds-754@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Charles 
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 3:27 PM
To: IEEE 754
Subject: Questions on data transfer and non-arithmetic handling rules
1)  I do not find any rule offhand in IEEE Std 754-2008 Clause 5.4.2 or 
elsewhere that says what happens when the "source" item is exactly the same 
format (and encoding) as the "sink" item.  My personal assumption is that 
this would be a "bit-for-bit" transfer, with no reformatting at all, and 
that's what the COBOL rules specify.   
QUESTION:  Is there a rule that specifies this?  
2a)  COBOL has two ways of handling data transfer.  One of these is under 
arithmetic (e.g., COMPUTE B = A), the other is MOVE (MOVE A TO B).  The 
results are most often the same, but edge-case handling differs.  This leads 
2b)  I note that 3.1.2, Conformance, requires that a conforming (platform) 
implementation provides everything in Clause 5, Operations.  I note also 
that 5.4.2, Conversion operations for floating-point formats and decimal 
character sequences, is a subclause under 5,4, formatOf geneal-computational 
operations, but is NOT a subclause of 5.4.1, Arithmetic operations, but 
falls under a more "universal" classification that also applies elsewhere if 
full conformance is to be achieved.  
QUESTION:  For full conformance to IEEE Std 754-2008, should the provisions 
of 5.4.2 and 5.5 be taken to apply "universally", even in cases in which 
arithmetic is not involved, in which case any other behavior or results 
would be considered "nonconforming", as is indicated by their placement, or 
is an environment that specifies behavior different from these rules for the 
same operands for non-arithmetic manipulation nevertheless "conforming"?    
My opinion is the former, others differ.   
    -Chuck Stevens

754 | revision | FAQ | references | list archive