Re: [8023-10GEPON] Optical Overload Ad-Hoc announcement
Frank and Hamano-san,
How about set the damage thresholds to be 0dBm for PMD whose average
receiver power (max) is -1 dBm and damage thresholds to be -3 dBm for
all the other types of PMDs? -3 dBm is a loose requirement for 10G CW
mode receiver, and it should be an achievable target for burst mode?
Frankly speaking, I have concern about the first category, e.g., the
average power maximum is -1 dBm while the damage power is 0dBm. If due
to technical difficulty, we can not raise the damage power above 0 dBm,
do we need to keep overload power to -1 dBm? Can we reduce that to -3
dBm?
Regards,
Jessica
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Effenberger [mailto:feffenberger@HUAWEI.COM]
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 6:16 AM
To: STDS-802-3-10GEPON@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [8023-10GEPON] Optical Overload Ad-Hoc announcement
On the issue of damage threshold:
There is a saving grace for us.
In the downstream, which is continuous mode, the receiver circuit can
employ
passive current-limiting designs to obtain quite robust optical
capability.
By placing a load resistor in the bias supply path, excessive current
will
reduce the bias on the diode, which drastically reduces the APD gain,
which
in turn limits the current. This is a well-known technique, and is very
low
cost. It only works in CW mode, but that is ok. So, I think that for
the
downstream (that is, the ONU Rx), we should be able to set the damage
thresholds to be at 0 dBm (or at least -3 dBm), and it doesn't burden
anybody.
In the upstream, which is burst mode, the ONU should not transmit in
such a
configuration. So, in the practical case, the operator-users should not
have a problem. Therefore, we do not need to set the upstream damage
threshold (that is, the OLT Rx) higher than the "overload+1" level.
Since
the OLT Rx is the 'trouble-spot', I think this compromise should make
both
sides happy.
No?
Sincerely,
Frank E.
p.s. To make this system bulletproof, we should mandate that the ONU
should
intentionally stop working at above the overload level. In other words,
you
do not get bonus points for making a really high-overload ONU. In fact,
you
might end up burning out the OLT.
-----Original Message-----
From: Hiroshi Hamano [mailto:hamano.hiroshi@JP.FUJITSU.COM]
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 6:34 AM
To: STDS-802-3-10GEPON@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [8023-10GEPON] Optical Overload Ad-Hoc announcement
Dear Dr.Jiang,
> I checked the previous EPON standard (802.3-2005), In
> table 60-5 for 1000Base-PX10, it uses "Average receiver power (max) +
5
> dB" to define the Damage threshold, and in table 60-8 for
1000Base-PX20,
> it uses "Average receiver power (max) + 10 dB" to define the damage
> threshold.
In my understanding about 802.3ah, Damage threshold does not define
such a vague margin of 5dB or 10dB from the RX average receive power
(max),
but, I believe, it clearly defines to allow the TX-RX direct connection
without damage, putting the same TX average launch power (max) value
into the Damage threshold column, as I have already explained several
times
in my former comments and E-mails.
I am afraid this is not feasible in most of 10GE-PON classes any more,
with such a high 10GE-PON TX launch power and sensitive RX components.
It is sort of an objective change of the Damage threshold specification
from the standard precedents, and now the notification to the reader
is quite important.
> Typically, a system will
> require 3- 5dB system margin. Therefore, it will be no system running
> above "damage threshold - 3 dB/5dB". Define a damage threshold of 0
dBm
> almost makes the "average receive power of -1 dBm" useless. There is
> need to have enough buffer to make system and device robust to use, 3
dB
> is the minimum, and 5 dB is decent. ( Notes, 3dB down means 50% down,
5
> dB down means 69% down, while 1 dB down means only 80% down). And in
> fact, the larger, the better. So, I suggest to use 0 dBm as damage
> threshold for all type of 10G APD receiver, burst receiver or
continuous
> reciever.
I still cannot understand this technically at all that 1dB is not enough
and 3dB is OK. And even with 0dBm Damage threshold value, it is still
the 'useless??' RX average receive power (max) + 1dB in some classes,
and
it is impossible to keep consistency having 3dB margin.
I do not think either that it is always, 'the larger, the better'.
Component availability and cost effectiveness should also be counted.
Even 0dBm Damage level for 10G APD burst receiver still seems quite
challenging.
I am asking experts but they are not so sure so far if it is feasible or
not.
Reliability test is definitely necessary to guarantee such a high power
Damage level, which requires tremendous time and money.
Multi-vendor component supply is the key for the cost, and relaxed
specification
will make things much easier, if there is no strong technical reason to
tighten it.
Best regards,
Hiroshi Hamano
%% Jessica Jiang <jjiang@SALIRA.COM>
%% Re: [8023-10GEPON] Optical Overload Ad-Hoc announcement
%% Thu, 3 Apr 2008 20:30:19 -0700
> Hi,
>
> I agree with Frank's comments on the damage threshold setting. If we
> decide to put the damage value, we need to raise the damage threshold
> for lower power levels (classes PR20 and 30) to at least -3dBm.
> Consider the disaster consequence, damage threshold should be set as
> high as possible. I checked the previous EPON standard (802.3-2005),
In
> table 60-5 for 1000Base-PX10, it uses "Average receiver power (max) +
5
> dB" to define the Damage threshold, and in table 60-8 for
1000Base-PX20,
> it uses "Average receiver power (max) + 10 dB" to define the damage
> threshold. I understand that there is technical difficulty to raise
the
> damage threshold above 0 dBm for 10G receiver, so put the damage
> threshold to 0 dBm is OK, but it is not justified to use that
limitation
> to define damage threshold using "average receiver power (max)+ 1dB"
for
> 10G case. The purpose of putting damage threshold is to post request
on
> components so that the device would be not so vulnerable to be
damaged.
> No system will work near the damage point. Typically, a system will
> require 3- 5dB system margin. Therefore, it will be no system running
> above "damage threshold - 3 dB/5dB". Define a damage threshold of 0
dBm
> almost makes the "average receive power of -1 dBm" useless. There is
> need to have enough buffer to make system and device robust to use, 3
dB
> is the minimum, and 5 dB is decent. ( Notes, 3dB down means 50% down,
5
> dB down means 69% down, while 1 dB down means only 80% down). And in
> fact, the larger, the better. So, I suggest to use 0 dBm as damage
> threshold for all type of 10G APD receiver, burst receiver or
continuous
> reciever.
>
> I think it make more sense to ask vendor to take challenge of raising
> damage power in design than to ask user to be extremely careful of
using
> their system or device.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Jessica Jiang
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Effenberger [mailto:feffenberger@HUAWEI.COM]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 1:10 PM
> To: STDS-802-3-10GEPON@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [8023-10GEPON] Optical Overload Ad-Hoc announcement
>
> Dear All,
>
> If I can summarize my understanding:
>
> 1. The actual fact is that the practical damage threshold of 10G APD
> receivers is indeed 0 dBm (with some risk because burst mode Rx cannot
> use
> the usual 'load resistor' sort of limiting circuit.) So, we should
> certainly not increase the damage threshold above 0 dBm!
>
> 2. The PON optics should never be connected back to back, not even in
> testing. I don't think this is a practical problem, actually. So, to
> be
> complete, the standard should include some language warning the reader
> that
> back-to-back connection is potentially damaging.
>
> I would also observe that because PON is a single-fiber system, the
ONU
> Rx
> will be saturated at the same time that the OLT RX is in a dangerous
> situation. Since the ONU won't transmit without a valid upstream
> signal,
> the OLT will likely be 'saved' by this fact. Of course, we still need
> to
> worry about saving the ONU Rx from permanent damage, but since that is
> CW
> operation, a suitable load resistor / current-limited source should
> help.
>
> What is not clear is the correctness of defining a more lenient damage
> threshold for the classes that have lower power levels (classes PR20
and
> 30).
> The point was made that this is not a necessary specification for the
> operation of the system. And that is true - after all, a damage
> specification never is. Even the 0 dBm level is not a 'necessary'
spec.
>
> But I think that perhaps we should try to put down the level that we
> think
> is practically useful and easy to obtain.
>
> More discussion is needed on that.
>
> Sincerely,
> Frank E.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hiroshi Hamano [mailto:hamano.hiroshi@JP.FUJITSU.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 10:15 AM
> To: STDS-802-3-10GEPON@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [8023-10GEPON] Optical Overload Ad-Hoc announcement
>
> Dear Dr. Effenberger,
>
> I greatly appreciate your effort taking this ad hoc leadership.
>
> I have already made my comments on the 'Damage threshold' values,
> suggesting 'Overload + 1dB' for all classes. But currently an
> opposition
> has been made, which suggests that they should be at least
> 'Overload + 3dB'. I am not sure if this 3dB has any technical
meaning,
> nor if it is technically possible.
> I would like to show my thoughts and understandings, commenting
through
> your suggestion with regard to 'Damage threshold' values.
>
> > For some of our optics, the math would put the Overload+1 level at
> 0dBm,
> > which is probably where it should stay.
>
> I have asked 10G transceiver experts and they have the feeling that it
> is
> not
> easy to guarantee the 10G APD-RX damage level over 0 dBm, especially
for
>
> a burst-mode OLT receiver, where simple self-limiting circuitry cannot
> be
> implemented in order to catch up 10GE-PON high-speed burst signals.
> Reliability experiments may also be needed even to confirm that damage
> level.
> Continuous-mode RX in ONU may have a little more margin, but anyway
> in 10GE-PON, it seems difficult to guarantee the TX-RX direct
connection
>
> without damage, because of higher launch power and sensitive 10G
> components.
>
>
> > However, for other optics, the formula puts the damage level is
> > considerably lower. I'd expect that damage would not be a problem
> > for levels lower than -3dBm (just a seat-of-the-pants sort of
> judgment).
>
> I have suggested that -5dBm and -9dBm values for damage threshold
> in several classes, and these values may have full of margins,
compared
> to
> the actual 10G-RX performance, achievable without difficulty.
> But I think the specification value should not necessarily reflect
> the possible RX performance. It should specify only the required
value,
>
> just suitable to achieve the system function. I believe that all the
> possible margins and flexibilities should not be rejected without
> reason.
> especially in the IEEE standard.
>
>
> > If we look at clause 52, this sets the precedent for the damage
level
>
> > being 1dB over the Maximum Receive level...
> > (just like the 10G point-to-point clause did.)
>
> My understanding about 802.3ae may be a little bit different.
> Most of the PMD categories in Clause 52 (10GBASE-S, L, LX4) seem
> to have no 'Damage threshold' columns in their spec. table, but it is
> because they are supposed to serve very short reach applications,
> including direct TX-RX back-to-back connections, where
> 'TX average launch power (max)' equals to 'RX average receive power
> (max)'.
> So, 'Damage threshold' here should not necessarily be specified
> redundantly.
>
> The only exception is 10GBASE-E, and there, the column exists.
>
>
> > But, maybe the best approach is to take the damage level
> > out of the main table, and just put it as a footnote.
>
> I understand this feeling. If the direct TX-RX back-to-back
connection
> is not feasible in 10GE-PON, there may be no big meaning for
specifying
> 'Damage threshold'. It can be pushed out into the footnote, if it is
> not
> suitable in the main spec. table.
> It can be described as follows (following 802.3ae);
> 'The receiver shall be able to tolerate, without damage, continuous
> exposure to an optical input signal having a power level equal to
> the Average Receive Power (max) plus at least 1 dB'.
>
> But I think this is a sort of an objective change from 802.3
precedents,
>
> and all the readers/users should also be warned that direct TX-RX
> connection on 10GE-PON equipments may make a possible damage, and that
> if TX-RX back-to-back connection is necessary for some evaluations or
> tests,
>
> optical attenuators and/or equivalent loss components should be
inserted
>
> to guarantee the damage-free RX input power level.
>
> I think this kind of notification or warning should also appear in the
> main body texts before the RX spec. tables, to draw attention.
>
> Best regards,
> Hiroshi Hamano
>
> %% Frank Effenberger <feffenberger@HUAWEI.COM>
> %% [8023-10GEPON] Optical Overload Ad-Hoc announcement
> %% Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:22:29 -0400
>
> > Dear All,
> >
> > I was tasked with leading the discussion regarding optical damage /
> overload
> > issues.
> >
> > I think there are three sub-items that all relate to this issue
> > 1. What values should be used for the optical damage levels for the
> optics
> >
> > 2. What dynamic performance can be expected from strong-to-weak
burst
> > reception (the Treceiver_settling question)?
> >
> > 3. What about limiting the rate-of-attack of the burst Tx
(Ton/Toff)?
> >
> > We don't have much time, since formal comments must be submitted by
> April
> > 4th. So, below, I have put down my own initial thoughts on these
> topics.
> I
> > invite all to reply with their comments as soon as possible.
> >
> > 1. What values should be used for optical damage levels?
> > If we look at clause 52, this sets the precedent for the damage
level
> being
> > 1dB over the Maximum Receive level. If we look at the absolute
level
> for
> > the 10G LX optics, that is 0dBm, which admittedly is getting pretty
> strong.
> >
> > For some of our optics, the math would put the Overload+1 level at
> 0dBm,
> > which is probably where it should stay. However, for other optics,
> the
> > formula puts the damage level is considerably lower. I'd expect
that
> damage
> > would not be a problem for levels lower than -3dBm (just a
> seat-of-the-pants
> > sort of judgment).
> >
> > But, maybe the best approach is to take the damage level out of the
> main
> > table, and just put it as a footnote (just like the 10G
point-to-point
> > clause did.)
> >
> > 2. What dynamic performance can be expected from strong-to-weak
burst
> > reception (the Treceiver_settling question)?
> >
> > The Nagahori presentation gives us very useful data. Let me
> illustrate it
> > in the following way: From Nagahori page 7, we can see that a tau/T
> of
> 210
> > results in an error curve that has zero penalty at the higher bit
> error
> > rates that we are working at. (There are signs of an error floor,
but
> it
> > happens at 1E-10, so we don't care). T, in out case, is 97 ps. So,
> the
> > data says that setting tau to be 20ns is OK.
> >
> > Suppose we want to tolerate 20 dB of dynamic range burst to burst.
> This
> > means that we need to set the time constant of the AC-coupling to be
> at
> > least 5 times shorter than the burst-to-burst time. (e^5=148 >
20dB).
> That
> > means that the burst to burst time needs to be 100ns. So far, we
are
> not
> > seeing any problems. (By the way, the value of 100ns is what I put
> forward
> > in 3av_0801_effenberger_3-page4.)
> >
> > I also think that real circuits will need to allocate time for
control
> of
> > the pre-amplifier stage (setting of the APD bias and/or the TIA
> impedance).
> > This should take no longer than an additional 100ns of time.
> >
> > So, this leaves us with a requirement of 200ns, which has a safety
> margin
> of
> > 2x below the 400ns that is the proposed value for
Treceiver_settling.
>
> >
> > Thus, I don't see any reason why we should change the value from
> 400ns,
> just
> > like in 1G EPON. While it is true that Treceiver_settling will
likely
> need
> > to be longer than T_cdr, setting the maximum values of both at 400ns
> will
> > not preclude any implementations. I fully expect that real systems
> will
> > actually do much better than both of these limits.
> >
> > 3. What about limiting the rate-of-attack of the burst Tx
(Ton/Toff)?
> > I went to talk with my optical front-end expert, and he explained
the
> latest
> > results that we've been seeing. The whole motivation of our concern
> is
> the
> > large 20dB dynamic range that we are targeting in PON systems. The
> problem
> > is that the receiver is normally in the maximum gain condition, and
> then a
> > strong burst comes in that threatens to overload the circuit.
> >
> > Initially, we were concerned that the APD and the TIA would be most
> > sensitive to high burst transients. However, this seems to be not
the
> case.
> > The APD gain may be self-limiting (saturating), and this helps to
> limit
> the
> > signal to some extent. So, damage to that part of the circuit seems
> > unlikely.
> >
> > However, there still is a problem, and that is that the second stage
> > amplifier (the one that is driven by the TIA) tends to get
overloaded
> by
> the
> > strong bursts. (This is understandable, since the signal has
received
> more
> > gain by this point.) This prevents the output signal from being
> useful
> (for
> > control as well as for the actual signal), and the recovery from
> overload
> is
> > not well behaved. So, we'd like to avoid that.
> >
> > The simplest way to prevent transient overload is to reduce either
the
> APD
> > gain (by reducing its bias), or reducing the TIA impedance. Either
of
> these
> > methods is essentially a control loop, and it will have a
> characteristic
> > speed. The setting of the speed is bounded on both directions just
> like
> the
> > AC coupling speed, and a value of 20ns is good. Given that we have
a
> > control speed of 20ns, the loop will respond only that fast to input
> > transients. We can thereby reduce the excursion of the control
system
> > output by limiting the "time constant" of the input signal to be
> similar
> to
> > that of the control loop. This is why we suggest a 'rise time' on
the
> order
> > of 20ns.
> >
> > I was wrong in extending this to also specifying a 'fall time' -
there
> is
> no
> > need for controlling the trailing edge, at least, not strictly. The
> reason
> > is that the receiver will 'know' when the burst is over, so it
should
> be
> > able to manage its withdrawal symptoms. (Note that this implies
that
> the
> Rx
> > has certain feedback paths, such as when the CDR declares loss of
> lock.)
> >
> > So, that's the reason why we should consider having a controlled
> turn-on
> for
> > the transmitter.
> >
> > As for specifying it, the currently suggested text (a Minimum Ton)
is
> not
> > good. We should rather specify a maximum rate of power increase.
> Since we
> > are ramping from essentially zero to Pmax in about 20ns, I would
> suggest
> > setting the maximum rate of power increase to be Pmax(mW)/10ns.
This
> allows
> > for some non-linear power curve (e.g, exponential decay), since it
> provides
> > a margin factor of 2 over the straight line value.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Frank E.
>
> ---
> -----------------------------------------
> Hiroshi Hamano
> Network Systems Labs., Fujitsu Labs. Ltd.
> Phone:+81-44-754-2641 Fax.+81-44-754-2640
> E-mail:hamano.hiroshi@jp.fujitsu.com
> -----------------------------------------
>
>
---
-----------------------------------------
Hiroshi Hamano
Network Systems Labs., Fujitsu Labs. Ltd.
Phone:+81-44-754-2641 Fax.+81-44-754-2640
E-mail:hamano.hiroshi@jp.fujitsu.com
-----------------------------------------