From owner-stds-802-3-hssg@ieee.org Tue Feb 29 19:54 GMT 2000 Received: from gatekeeper.pdd.3com.com (gatekeeper [161.71.169.3]) by isolan.pdd.3com.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21714; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:54:25 GMT Received: from ruebert.ieee.org ([199.172.136.3]) by gatekeeper.pdd.3com.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA156F; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:52:44 +0000 Received: by ruebert.ieee.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA23964; Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:11:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Edward Chang" To: "jmw" , , , Subject: RE: PAM-5, what are your BERs ? Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:17:06 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000229064314.00a867e0@mail.bayarea.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-stds-802-3-hssg@ieee.org Precedence: bulk X-Resent-To: Multiple Recipients X-Listname: stds-802-3-hssg X-Info: [Un]Subscribe requests to majordomo@majordomo.ieee.org X-Moderator-Address: stds-802-3-hssg-approval@majordomo.ieee.org X-Lines: 110 Status: RO Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Length: 4088 Mike: We are discussing the product developments, which are based on proved theorems and equations to mathematically calculate all designs. After that, setting up tests to confirm that the test data, and the analyses are correlated. Otherwise, repeat the procedures to achieve the goals. Finally, it will go through extensive system tests and BER tests to certify a product. Engineers do not just "looking at a scope", then make the comment. They theorize it, quantify it, then make comments. Unless, some one has extensive communication product development experience in the past, it is hard for a one to grasp, and appreciate the contents of the comments put forward on reflectors by those serious contributors. The term, S/N ratio, is a very abstract term to those who are not circuit designers. However, to the circuit designer, S/N ratio can hurt you as real as putting your finger on top of a fire. The cascading of the frequency response of each component to predict the over-all system frequency response is a well known basic tool implemented by all circuit designers. It is as predictable as, 1+1 = 2. Regards, Edward S. Chang NetWorth Technologies, Inc. EChang@NetWorthtech.com Tel: (610)292-2870 Fax: (610)292-2872 -----Original Message----- From: owner-stds-802-3-hssg@ieee.org [mailto:owner-stds-802-3-hssg@ieee.org]On Behalf Of jmw Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 10:00 AM To: NetWorthTK@aol.com; vivek@cicada-semi.com; stds-802-3-hssg@ieee.org Subject: Re: PAM-5, what are your BERs ? Edward, my $0.02: it is not always the case that because a thing seems to be true on first examination, it must therefore always be true. SNR is certainly a critical issue for any receiver in any communication system. Claude Shannon proved that a long time ago. but aside from bandwidth and data rate issues (for the moment, of course), if "signal" and "noise" are sufficiently statistically independent, then the two can be separated and the signal recovered. for this case it is not enough to look at a 'scope display, say to yourself "gee, that looks like nothing but noise to me", and decide you're done. -- J M Wincn Cielo Communications, Inc. 325 Interlocken Pkwy, Bldg A Broomfield, CO 80021-3497 mwincn@cieloinc.com Voice: 303-464-2264 Cell: 408-394-5283 At 01:15 AM 29-02-2000 -0500, NetWorthTK@aol.com wrote: >Hi Vivel: > > >From theoretical point of view, you reasoning makes some points. However, >from the real implementation point of view, it is not quite true. Before >starting analyzing the frequency response, just ask a question: "If we can >simply keep equalizing the receiving signals to bring them back to the >looking-alike to the original, transmitting signal, why we bother all those >bandwidth issues? There must be some limitations to the equalization >technique. > >The eye closure is caused by the insufficient bandwidth of a receiving path; >as a result, the narrow pulse (higher frequency pulse) is much more >attenuated than the wider pulse (lower frequency pulse). We can cascade a >high-pass frequency response equalizer to suppers the amplitude of a wide >pulse, and keep the amplitude of the narrow pulse remain unchanged (but not >amplified) to open the eye. However, if the amplitude of a narrow pulse is >already too small to meet the minimum S/N requirement, the equalizer is >useless. Theoretically, a linear amplifier can be added to bring the signal >amplitude up to meet the minimum S/N requirement. The linear amplifier will >need a BW larger than the transmitting signal rise time. Furthermore, any >deficiencies in the linearity, will add both timing and amplitude distortion >to the received data. The additional distortion is not included in the >jitter specification; as a result, the link will cause higher BER. >Especially in a high data rate link, a linear amplifier may cause more errors >than the expected benefit. In practice, it is impractical to add a linear >amplifier. > >The right way is to keep eye open at the receiver input. > >Regards, > >Ed Chang > >NetWorth Technologies, Inc.