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Re: Issues concerning 10GbE speed standards

I wouldn't jump to the same conclusion so quickly.  Do remember that the DWDM
systems are implemented in the 1500 nm band and the 1000LX that some people are
using for non-LAN (by your definition) connectivities uses the 1300 nm band.  As
Tom Dineen and couple others have pointed out, LAN customers (including an
increasing number of "adventurous" enterprise customers attempting to use
Ethernet for non-LAN connectivities) want the most cost effective solution
(hence the simplest).  They also want to use that simple solution for as far as
the solution will allow.  I, for one, would like to hear what the optical
component vendors think they can do first.

Roy Bynum <rabynum@xxxxxxxxxxx> on 06/27/99 06:57:13 AM

Please respond to rabynum@xxxxxxxxxxx

Sent by:  Roy Bynum <rabynum@xxxxxxxxxxx>

To:   Drew Perkins <drew.perkins@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
cc:   "'stds-802-3-hssg'" <stds-802-3-hssg@xxxxxxxx> (Peter
Subject:  Re: Issues concerning 10GbE speed standards


I don't know if you realize it or not, but you just gave a very good reason for
not implementing 8B/10B coding for a serial MAN/WAN PHY.  With fewer wavelengths
available over WDM systems, it makes MAN/WAN implementation costs higher per
for given high bandwidths.  That economic issue makes the minor difference
between 8B10B  and scramble code electronics insignificant.

Roy Bynum,

Drew Perkins wrote:

> Peter and Roy,
>         The cost of higher speed in the WAN is not so much that of the
> electronic parts, but rather the fact that you need more of them for long
> distances. This is because most optical effects such as dispersion increase
> with the square of the distance. Thus increasing the speed by 25% increases
> the optical effects by 56%, and that tends to decrease the distance you can
> go by  about a third. Then you need 33% more spans to go the same distance.
> Also, in order to send 25% more bits, you wind up increasing the power by
> 25%, and you use more optical bandwidth. And since you are sending more
> bits, you are using more optical bandwidth. These facts result in fewer
> optical channels being supportable on a fiber, resulting in more fibers
> being used, resulting in more line systems, etc.  The result again is more
> equipment and higher costs.
> Actually, the electronic parts might become less expensive with the 25%
> extra speed. The balanced nature of the 8B10B code decreases the cost and
> attention that must be paid to jitter.
> Drew
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Ciena Corporation                 Email: ddp@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> Core Switching Division                 Tel: 408-865-6202
> 10201 Bubb Road                         Fax: 408-865-6291
> Cupertino, CA 95014              Cell/Pager: 408-829-8298
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stds-802-3-hssg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:owner-stds-802-3-hssg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
> Peter_Wang@xxxxxxxx
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 1999 8:35 PM
> To: rabynum@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: stds-802-3-hssg@xxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Issues concerning 10GbE speed standards
> Roy,
> >From a number of the component vendors' presentations at CFI, I don't recall
> anyone claiming that the cost of the electronic parts (SiGe or GaAs) will be
> much different between 10 & 12.5 Gbps.  The primary cost issue seemed that
> of
> the relative laser performance (e.g. temperature stablization).  Also, if
> you
> are talking about "converting" an existing Sonet chip to silicon (meaning
> that
> the existing desing is in GaAs) and throwing away a bunch of circuits, I
> wouldn't be so sure that the development cost would be much less.  In any
> case,
> assuming the volume is large (which I'm sure everyone's hoping), the
> development
> cost will be amortized, and hence not a significant factor.  But this is a
> discussion for LAN (or enterprise) applications.  I was trying to understand
> the
> economics of applying Ethernet to WAN but forcing it within the existing WAN
> practice, and hoping you could provide some insight.
> Peter
> Roy Bynum <rabynum@xxxxxxxxxxx> on 06/25/99 04:50:23 PM
> Please respond to rabynum@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent by:  Roy Bynum <rabynum@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To:   Peter Wang/HQ/3Com
> cc:   stds-802-3-hssg@xxxxxxxx
> Subject:  Re: Issues concerning 10GbE speed standards
> Peter,
> Just because a SONET OC192C framing is used, does not mean that the OAMP
> functionality is active in the LAN interface.  If OAMP processing is not
> needed, only the existing SONET chip set, converted to silicon, with
> most active functionality, other than path BER can be disabled.  This
> will leverage the existing technology without the higher cost of the
> APS, line and section overhead, etc.
> Having worked on devices before, I know that the higher the bit signal
> rate the more expensive the devices.  With a PHY that is 1/4 higher in
> bit rate, compared the 8B/10B signal rate, the OC192 rate may be less
> expensive.
> Roy
> Peter_Wang@xxxxxxxx wrote:
> >
> > It will help a great deal if you could point out specific aspects and
> approaches
> > where an Ethernet extended to support all of the existing common carrier
> O&M
> > requirements, encapsulated within the existing Sonet/SDH structure,
> running
> over
> > existing OC192/STM64 facilities, will actually come out costing
> significantly
> > less that the current solution?
> > - Peter
> >
> > Roy Bynum <rabynum@xxxxxxxxxxx> on 06/20/99 07:34:08 AM
> >
> > Please respond to rabynum@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Sent by:  Roy Bynum <rabynum@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >
> > To:   wthirion@xxxxxxxxxx
> > cc:   stds-802-3-hssg@xxxxxxxx, stds-802-3-hssg-speed@xxxxxxxx (Peter
> >       Wang/HQ/3Com)
> > Subject:  Issues concerning 10GbE speed standards
> >
> > Walt, et al,
> >
> > The issue of speed is one of economics.  The existing GbE standard does
> > not allow for any operations support for the optical fiber facility.
> > This makes GbE very expensive to maintain and support over a MAN/WAN
> > environment.  The cost of ownership of GbE will prevent it from having a
> > masive impact directly on the cost of MAN and WAN data communications.
> >
> > Common carrier protocols, such as DS1/DS3/SONET/SDH have operations and
> > maintencance functionality incorporated in the overhead of the
> > protocol.  DS1 and DS3 have a subcarrier that provides remote and
> > reverse signalling outside of the transport "payload".  This allows
> > carriers to troubleshoot and maintain remote systems without haveing to
> > dispatch someone for every little issue.  In some respects, GbE fails to
> > meet the 802.3 functional requirements for interoperation with common
> > carrier systems.
> >
> > 1000BaseSX and 1000BaseLX are optical networking standards.  Whether
> > this was the intention or even the perception of the 802.3 working
> > group.  The working group did not include any support for operations or
> > maintenance in the optical domain for this protocol.  The functional
> > operations of copper LAN facilities are well understood by the 802.3
> > working group, but when you get beyond multi-mode, 850nm, optical
> > transport, it is no longer a LAN, it is a WAN.  Some will say that 30km
> > is a MAN, not a WAN.  If you apply the same function processes
> > distictions to optical systems that are applied to copper systems, you
> > will discover that a MAN is actually a WAN within a single central
> > office domain. When I was actively working on Ethernet, when it left the
> > building, it was no longer a LAN, it was a WAN.
> >
> > In order for 10000BaseX to support MAN/WAN systems within common carrier
> > facilities, common carrier operations and maintance support must be
> > within the protocol.  SONET/SDH are the current, and most widely
> > deployed transport protocols within the common carrier domain.
> > SONET/SDH use the transport overhead to provide that functionality.
> > That functionality allows the common carriers to reduce the operations
> > and support costs for the fiber optic transport systems, and thus lower
> > the overall costs passed on to the end users.  This will be the economic
> > breaking point for 10GbE.  Can it directly support the fiber optic
> > transmission system?  Is there any reason why it should not be able to
> > directly provide operations support for the optical fiber systems?
> >
> > A second economic issue of speed for 10GbE is one of utilizing existing
> > technology and standards at the ~10Gigabit speed range.  A masive
> > install base of facilities and support already exist for OC192/STM64 on
> > a global scale.  Optical amplifers, signal and clock recovery
> > regenerators, and other systems are already in place to carry
> > OC192/STM64 signals in metropolitan as well as wide are networks.  I
> > would not want to contemplate the economic impact of having to install
> > totally seperate technology to support 10GbE.  If it can not use the
> > existing ~10Gb technology and facilities, Other than "dark fiber", 10GbE
> > will have to be installed over a totaly new, and totaly seperate
> > facilities.  Is there any reason why 10GbE should not support and make
> > use of the existing ~10Gb transport facilities?
> >
> > I hope that this message has not been too long.  As an employee of a
> > common carrier company, I have a recognizable vested interest in looking
> > toward 10GbE as a major economical alternative to existing data tranport
> > technolgy, such as TDM or ATM.  I have almost 20 years of designing,
> > installing, and supporting LAN, MAN, and WAN systems.  I have seen the
> > economics change as more self-supporting protocols and technologies have
> > become available.  The key is to provide a protocol that allows remote
> > operations support, which reduces the number of "warm bodies" that are
> > required to support the systems.  This is what I am asking for.  Is
> > there any reason why this can not be done?
> >
> >                          Thank you,
> >                          Roy Bynum
> >                          MCI WorldCom