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RE: Hari as 10 Gig Fibre Channel

Hi Roy,

I kinda like the HARI interface but have not dedicated one single gate
to it yet. Which camp does that put me in? The ones who "are upset because
I have challenged  their perceived control of the development of 10GbE."
or some other group not included in your characterizations?

If you go back to the early days of Ethernet, you will find an AUI which
looks sorta like a very low speed, single channel HARI interface. It was
coded with Manchester, it had jitter requirements, it represented limits
to anyone who might have wanted to propose a 10Mbps, NRZ scrambled PHY for
Ethernet. In fact, some people even used that interface as a backplane 
interface in some instances as well.

You said "I challenged their perceived view of Ethernet as a confined 
protocol, when they did not understand how Data Link protocols are used 
and what makes them functionally different." which at the minimum is a 
grandiose statement, but beyond that, is contradicted by your own complaints
about them wanting to exceed your own narrow definition of what a MAC/PHY 
interface should be.

As I said earlier, you don't HAVE to use HARI. If a passing majority of
the members in this group find HARI to be useful in the standard, it will
likely be there as an optional interface. There is no reason that you 
could not build a WAN PHY that used the proposed parallel interface for
your own products. In fact, you could build a product with NEITHER 
interface if both are optional (likely) and you meet the MAC and PMD specs.

I would personally like to see more technical debate and a little less of
the poorly constructed conspiracy theories. I think the group can greatly
benefit from your technical expertise on a wide range of matters before

Best Regards,

Dan Dove
___________     _________________________________________________________
_________    _/    ___________  Daniel Dove         Principal Engineer __
_______     _/        ________  dan_dove@xxxxxx     LAN PHY Technology __
_____      _/           ______  Hewlett-Packard Company                __
____      _/_/_/ _/_/_/  _____  Workgroup Networks Division            __
____     _/  _/ _/  _/   _____  8000 Foothills Blvd. MS 5555           __
_____   _/  _/ _/_/_/   ______  Roseville, CA 95747-5555               __
______        _/      ________  Phone: 916 785 4187                    __
_______      _/      _________  Fax  : 916 785 1815                    __
__________  _/ __________________________________________________________

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roy Bynum [mailto:rabynum@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 8:32 PM
> To: rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxx; rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: HSSG
> Subject: Re: Hari as 10 Gig Fibre Channel 
> Rich,
> Perhaps the NCITS TC T11 is the correct forum to standardize 
> on Hari.  Please remove it as a
> specific functional standard within P802.3ae.  Please make it 
> possible for the people
> working on the PHYs to apply the functional implementations 
> that are needed for the specific
> PHYs.  According to the 802.3 model the PHY specific coding 
> occurs within the PCS, not the
> PMD.  Applying Hari between the PMA and PMD violates that model!
> Hari is only a requirement for those people that decided on 
> the PHY of choice before the
> HSSG got a chance to vote on it/them, and jumped the gun on 
> their ASICs.  As far as I am
> concerned those people can implement anything they want, as 
> long as they do not make it part
> of the P802.3ae standard.
> Right now several people are upset because I have challenged 
> their perceived control of the
> development of 10GbE.  I have brought disorder where they 
> thought that they had imposed
> order, their order. They are correct.  I challenged their 
> perceived view of Ethernet as a
> confined protocol, when they did not understand how Data Link 
> protocols are used and what
> makes them functionally different.  They did not understand 
> that the developers of GbE
> brought the disorder first by crossing the boundary between 
> confined LAN application and
> unconfined WAN application.
> The application of Fiber Channel technology and functionality 
> helped cause that disorder.
> Most FC applications have response timing limitations (100x 
> ms) at the application level,
> which makes most FC implementations Local.  Putting Fiber 
> Channel under applications that do
> not have those same response timing limitations removes the 
> Local only limitation.  FC is
> designed for campus facilities, using privately owned fiber.  
> The GbE people incorrectly
> thought that they too were making GbE into a Local only 
> protocol.  They did not understand
> that the full duplex nature of the original Ethernet, applied 
> through 100mb 802.3 was what
> made it truly Local only.  Even the electrical full duplex 
> 100BT can be used across a long
> haul fiber system by putting it into an optical transducer.  
> Full duplex 100FX has been used
> across long distances with wavelength/power transducers.  GbE 
> is taking off as a leased
> fiber WAN protocol, without service operations support.
> I am not the cause of the disorder here.  The people that did 
> not fully understand the
> implications and applications of what they were doing are the 
> cause of the disorder.  Please
> do not codify that disorder within P802.3ae.
> Thank you,
> Roy Bynum
> Rich Taborek wrote:
> > Earlier this week, NCITS Technical Committee T11, chartered 
> with development of the
> > Fibre Channel suite of standards, approved a project 
> proposal to extend FC protocol to
> > an operating speed of approximately 10 Gbps, following the 
> lead of the IEEE 802.3
> > committee. The project proposal, entitled FC-PI-2 to 
> identify the documentation effort
> > associated with the 10 Gig FC project, was approved by T11 
> Letter Ballot on Monday,
> > November 22, 1999 by a vote of Yes63-No02-NotVoting10 (4 
> yes ballots included comments).
> > Further details and comments can be found via the T11 web 
> site @ by
> > clicking on "ballots", then "closed ballots", then "T11 
> Ballot - FC-PI-2 PP approval".
> > The next step is to forward the project proposal to NCITS, 
> T11's parent body. The
> > FC-PI-2 project proposal can be found @
> >
> >
> > An introductory meeting to kick off the 10 Gig FC project 
> will be held during the next
> > T11 Plenary week on December 8, 1999 at the Peppermill 
> Hotel in Reno, NV, USA, during
> > the joint session of the T11.2 (FC Physical Layer) and 
> T11.3 (FC Interconnects)
> > committees. This meeting is scheduled for 1:00-2:00 PM. 
> Further T11 Plenary week details
> > can be found by clicking on "meetings" from the T11 home page.
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Rich
> >
> >   ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Richard Taborek Sr.   1441 Walnut Dr.   Campbell, CA 95008 USA
> > Tel: 408-330-0488 or 408-370-9233           Cell: 408-832-3957
> > Email: rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxx or rtaborek@xxxxxxxxxxxxx