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RE: Requests for password to the protected site.

As somebody who only participates via e-mail (mostly reading the
discussions, and seldom posting) please let me also voice my support of
Howard's and Bruce's position.  

As a working engineer laboring in the design trenches, I don't have the time
-- or the charter from my management -- to fly around the world attending
standards meetings.  Nonetheless, keeping current with the progress of the
standards bodies is crucial to my own work.  Consequently, I must rely on
the e-mail reflector (and the web) to keep current with evolving standards.

Larger companies can afford to pay a person (or even a small group of
people) to participate full time with the standards bodies.  Small companies
-- where much of the innovation in networking actually occurs -- often
cannot devote a person to this full time.  Furthermore, I believe strongly
that the person actually doing the designs is the person who should be
keeping track of the standard.  If the actual designer is in contact with
the standards process, two benefits occur:

1.  The standards are based on the designer's practical knowledge, which is
closely tied to actual implementation.

2.  The technologies being standardized are implemented faster 'cause the
designer is in touch with the standard.

The IEEE is often criticized as being a club for academics, and of little
relevance to the "real" engineer.  Providing open access to draft standards
for working engineers is one way in which the IEEE can help support the
community of electronics designers and working engineers.  

Thanks for your consideration.

Stuart Brorson
Axiowave Networks
Marlborough, MA

-----Original Message-----
From: Howard Frazier [mailto:millardo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 7:04 PM
To: stds-802-3-hssg@xxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Requests for password to the protected site.

I think that the policy of limiting access to the drafts to the 802.3
list or the 802.3ae attendance list is unnecessarily and improperly

The copyright information on the front of the draft says:

    Permission is hereby granted for IEEE Standards Committee participants 
    to reproduce this document for purposes of IEEE standardization

During 802.3z, I interpretted this to mean that any one who was
in the work of the 802.3z Task Force was allowed access to the draft. Since
many people participate solely via email, I considered all members of the
stds-802-3-hssg reflector to be eligible for access.

Standards benefit from broad review.  Some very useful comments were
during 802.3z from people who never attended a meeting. I strongly encourage
the leadership of 802.3ae and 802.3 to reconsider the draft access policy,
favor of a more open policy.

Howard Frazier
DomiNet Systems, Inc.

Bruce Tolley wrote:
> Geoff and Jonathan:
> Many thanks for the email.
> I just wanted to point out the obvious.  This policy prohibits access to
> the very folks who need access: the R&D teams across the world who are
> building 10 GbE product.
> It might be time to the IEEE to rethink the IP philosophy behind the
> copyright. The spec only has value if it is accessible to those who need
> implement it today and over the next year.  I am guess that the IP lawyers
> have probably recommended this very policy in order to prevent the content
> of the draft entering the public domain.
> By restricting access the IEEE might be honoring the letter of their
> interpretation of the copyright law, but they are definitely lowering the
> value of the draft spec. The spec only has value if it is implemented so
> hindering implementation this policy lessens its value.
> This policy not only hinders the development of products based on the spec
> but it also puts many of us in the VERY awkward position of having to
> resist somewhat legitimate requests to violate the the policy.
> Thanks for listening
> Bruce Tolley
> Enterprise Line of Business
> Cisco Systems
> Bruce
> Bruce Tolley
> At 12:43 PM 10/28/00 -0700, Jonathan Thatcher wrote:
> >I have recently received a significant number of requests for the
> >to the protected site. I have checked each person requesting this
> >information against the membership list of 802.3 and the attendees of
> >802.3ae. For those that were in these lists, I have forwarded the
> >For those that were not, I have explained that the IEEE copyright
> >policy/terms limit distribution to those who are attending the meetings.
> >
> >Because the burden of doing this is getting to be "a bit much." I will be
> >forwarding a note to all 802.3 members and all who have been attending
> >meetings informing them of the password.
> >
> >We invite all to come to the meetings and participate in the process (and
> >thereby receive the password). Information on our next meeting can be
> >at:
> >
> >
> >Information on future meetings can be found in the minutes from the
> >See:
> >
> >
> >Thank you for understanding,
> >
> >jonathan
> >
> >Jonathan Thatcher, Principal Engineer
> >Chair, IEEE P802.3ae (10 Gigabit Ethernet)
> >World Wide Packets
> >115 North Sullivan Rd
> >PO Box 950
> >Veradale WA  99037
> >509-242-9228; Fax 509-242-9001;
> >jonathan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx