RE: Wide Area Networking for the Rest of US - the debate on BER and other issues

["Bill St. Arnaud" <Bill.St.Arnaud@canarie.ca>]

>
> We are supposed to be working on 10 Gigabit 802.3, not IP protocols.

Agreed.

> Why are the functionalities, problems, and futures of IP protocols an
> issue here.

But if IP is going to be the dominant, and perhaps some day the only
protocol riding on Ethernet I would think that the Ethernet designers would
be interested in understanding some of the unusual traffic and behaviour
characteristics of IP.  Perhaps this greater knowledge will allow them to
design a better 10GbE for this market than they would have otherwise.  I
think this will be particularly true for long haul GbE

I do agree that most of my comments are not directly related to the 10GbE
standards process.  But I am hoping that some manufacturers will implement
some of my suggestions as custom features in their products.   If nothing it
will help disseminate a wider knowledge and appreciation of the issues we
face in the IP world.

Bill

>
> 					Thank you,
> 					Roy Bynum
> Bill St. Arnaud wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > It is this very mechanism of using dropped TCP packets as a
> mechanism to
> > > signal flow control that is at issue.  This mechanism was
> designed into
> > > TCP because of the use of unreliable transmission media.  It was
> > > designed over twenty years ago, long before optical data
> networking came
> > > into existance.  It was designed at a time when a BER of 10^-8 was
> > > considered the best that could ever be achieved.  It was
> designed before
> > > there was any congestion control at the lower layers.  It was designed
> > > before Ethernet or 802.3 came into existance.
> >
> > Roy:
> >
> > I don't disagree that the TCP flow control mechanism is ugly.
> But it works.
> > And it works with millions and millions of computers across the
> net.  So it
> > is unlikely to change anytime in the near future.
> >
> > As you know there are newer flow control mechanisms being
> developed for real
> > time video and voice - RTP,RTSP, etc.  How well they succeed is
> anybody's
> > guess.
> >
> > In the advanced reserach networks like Internet 2 and CA*net 3
> a number of
> > us are coming to the conclusion that VOI and IVC and other real time
> > applications will not be the compelling applications that drive
> bandwidth.
> > Admittedly we are a small sample and our conclusions may not
> relate to the
> > larger commercial world.  What is the killer app?  E-mail and FTP. Our
> > reserachers have the most sophisticated networks on the planet and the
> > biggest use is to transmit humongous data files.  Internet 2
> for example had
> > one file transfer so huge that it took over a month to transmit at OC-12
> > rates!!!!
> >
> > >
> > > Today, the transmission media is much more reliable.  The
> congestion can
> > > be controled at the physical access point on the originating system.
> >
> > Which gives us countless grief.  That is why we can't wait to get rid of
> > ATM.  It is nothing to do with the cell tax, but with all the strange
> > interactions that happen between ATM flow control and TCP flow
> control.  As
> > much as practically possible all levers and knobs should be
> visible at the
> > IP layer.  That is the message I am tryin to get across about BER, flow
> > control ect.  Hiding functionality from upper layers only makes our life
> > more difficult and complex it also makes it very difficult to
> optimize and
> > simplify our network.  You also end up duplicating many of the same
> > functions e.g retransmissions, flow control, QoS, etc etc
> >
> > > This change started when the original Ethernet started using collision
> > > detection to control congestion.  (A loss of a frame due to
> collision is
> > > at the MAC layer,2, not at the Transmission layer,4.) A congested
> > > Ethernet shared media LAN was measured by collisions.  Even today, on
> > > switched 802.3 LANs congestion is measured by looking at "runts".  On
> > > full duplex 100BaseT LANs flow control prevents even this level of
> > > congestion.  If you loose packets on a LAN today, it is
> generally in the
> > > receiving system, not the transmission system.  Today, on a
> 802.3 GbE or
> > > 100Mb LAN, TCP flow control is a refection of the performance
> of the end
> > > systems, not the transmission media.
> >
> > Agree 100%.  And it is the end systems that are now causing most of the
> > problems related to BER and retransmission on the network
> >
> > > At present, GbE ( 1000BaseLX ) is already moving into the WAN
> > > environment. You have made the statement that it is being used in the
> > > Internet.  This means that the "rules" are changing for the
> Internet as
> > > well as for private intranets.  This is a very "Darwinian" reality.
> > > What, and whomever, is unable to adapt, will not survive.
> > >
> > > In order for the Internet, and such things as E-Commerce to
> continue to
> > > grow, the issue of stability and reliability must be addressed.
> >
> > Agree 100%.  But in excellent study done by C Huitema at
> Bellcore he showed
> > that most of the reliability and congestion problems on the
> Internet are not
> > due to the network.  In fact less than 42% of the congestion
> and reliability
> > is due to network issues!  So where should you spend your money
> on making
> > the internet more reliable?
> >
> >  The
> > > promise of Internet based abstracted services, such as VOI and IVC
> > > (Internet Video Conferencing), can only be realized on a stable and
> > > reliable Internet.  Bandwidth is increasing to residential systems as
> > > well as other access facilities.  Cable modem systems are a
> shared media
> > > access facility, not too much unlike the old shared media LANs.  The
> > > stability and reliability of the transmission media is being addressed
> > > in the access systems.  It must also be addressed in the core
> > > transmission media as well.
> >
> > You may want to look at our engineering paper on optical Internets for
> > further debate on this issue.
> >
> > >
> > > The way that the TCP flow control process works over the
> Internet today,
> > > applies to today.  Why should it apply to they way the
> Internet works in
> > > the future?  Should that also restrict the way that private intranets
> > > work?  The implementation of 1000BaseLX in the WAN
> environment says that
> > > the way the processes will be applied in the future is
> different.  This
> > > door has been opened and can not be closed.  Can you help me
> and others
> > > figure out what and how those processes will be changing, and
> how to go
> > > forward and improve them?
> >
> > Yes please see "Architectural and Engineering Issues of Building Optical
> > Internet"  www.canet3.net
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > >
> > >                                       Thank you,
> > >                                       Roy Bynum
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bill St. Arnaud wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Larry:
> > > >
> > > > What you say may be true for other types of networks.  But
> > > dropped packets
> > > > and re-transmissions are an essential feature of Internet
> networks.  The
> > > > TCP/IP congestion control mechanisms uses dropped packets as a
> > > mechanism to
> > > > signal the source to throttle back the data flow.
> > > >
> > > > In fact many ISPs use a utility called RED ( Random Early
> > > Discard ) or WRED
> > > > ( Weighted Early Random Discard) to deliberately drop packets
> > > as a mechanism
> > > > to throttle traffic on congested links.   Yes this does cause a
> > > > re-transmission, but TCP automatically drops down to a lower
> > > speed when this
> > > > happens.  As a result on most Internet links about 1-3% of the
> > > traffic is
> > > > dropped packet and re=transmissions.  However, most of these
> > > dropped packets
> > > > are not due to RED but to buffer overflow at the
> destination receiver.
> > > > SIGCOMM'98 has some excellent papers documenting this
> behaviour on the
> > > > Internet.
> > > >
> > > > If I have to do packet discard in any event I might as well do
> > > it a layer 1
> > > > just as well as at layer 3.  More importantly if I am
> already dropping
> > > > packets for other reasons, then as long as the number of
> dropped packets
> > > > from BER is less than the number of dropped packets from
> TCP congestion
> > > > control then the actual BER (whether it is 10^-15 or 10^-8) is
> > > irrelevant to
> > > > me.
> > > >
> > > > I am assuming that if 10XGbE is used in the long haul the primary
> > > > application will be to carry Internet traffic.  That is why it
> > > would be nice
> > > > to have an option for those of use who are running Internet
> > > networks to have
> > > > a BER Knob.  With a BER knob I may be able to extend my
> > > repeater distance,
> > > > use lower cost lasers, etc etc.  However, as I said before this
> > > may still
> > > > may not be practical because of other issues particularly with
> > > respect to
> > > > the non-linear factors that affect BER.  But it still might
> be worth a
> > > > cursory investigation.
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > -------------------------------------------
> > > > Bill St Arnaud
> > > > Director Network Projects
> > > > CANARIE
> > > > bill.st.arnaud@canarie.ca
> > > > http://tweetie.canarie.ca/~bstarn
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: owner-stds-802-3-hssg@majordomo.ieee.org
> > > > > [mailto:owner-stds-802-3-hssg@majordomo.ieee.org]On
> Behalf Of Larry
> > > > > Miller
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 11:38 AM
> > > > > To: stds-802-3-hssg@ieee.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: Wide Area Networking for the Rest of US - the
> > > debate on BER
> > > > > and other issues
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think the bit is that when you report bad frames upward to
> > > higher layers
> > > > > they have to do some work to re-request those frames and that
> > > takes much
> > > > > longer than the time actually burned by the dropped frames.
> > > Hence, if you
> > > > > get too low of a raw BER you spend all (or maybe more than all)
> > > > > of your time
> > > > > with higher layer thrashing and never get through with
> the (say) file
> > > > > transfer.
> > > > >
> > > > > This, I think, is the fallacy in Mr St. Arnaud's notion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Larry Miller
> > > > > Nortel Networks
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Mike Dudek <mdudek@cieloinc.com>
> > > > > To: Chang, Edward S <Edward.Chang@unisys.com>
> > > > > Cc: bin.guo@amd.com <bin.guo@amd.com>; bill.st.arnaud@canarie.ca
> > > > > <bill.st.arnaud@canarie.ca>; rtaborek@transcendata.com
> > > > > <rtaborek@transcendata.com>; dwmartin@nortelnetworks.com
> > > > > <dwmartin@nortelnetworks.com>; stds-802-3-hssg@ieee.org
> > > > > <stds-802-3-hssg@ieee.org>; sachs@watson.ibm.com
> > > <sachs@watson.ibm.com>
> > > > > Date: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 5:42 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Wide Area Networking for the Rest of US - the debate
> > > > > on BER and
> > > > > other issues
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Agreed, but the percentage of good frames stays the same.  ie the
> > > > > percentage
> > > > > >bandwidth used for retransmissions is the same.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"Chang, Edward S" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Mike:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> If the BER is maintained the same for both GbE and 10xGbE
> > > and assume
> > > > > >> everything is equal, the frequency of getting error from
> > > 10GbE is 10
> > > > > times
> > > > > >> than GbE from PHY.  Of course, the whole system has other
> > > factors to be
> > > > > >> included to find the final throughput.  In another word,
> > > the occurrence
> > > > > of
> > > > > >> frame error will be much more for 10GbE than GbE.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I may present mathematical analysis in July, if my
> time is allowed.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Ed Chang
> > > > > >> Unisys Corporation
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> From: Mike Dudek [mailto:mdudek@cieloinc.com]
> > > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 10:07 AM
> > > > > >> To: Chang, Edward S
> > > > > >> Cc: bin.guo@amd.com; bill.st.arnaud@canarie.ca;
> > > > > >> rtaborek@transcendata.com; dwmartin@nortelnetworks.com;
> > > > > >> stds-802-3-hssg@ieee.org; sachs@watson.ibm.com
> > > > > >> Subject: Re: Wide Area Networking for the Rest of US - the
> > > > > debate on BER
> > > > > >> and other issues
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I do not agree that the BER must be improved with data
> > > rate increase in
> > > > > >> order to
> > > > > >> obtain the higher throughput.  At least for packet based
> > > transmission
> > > > > with
> > > > > >> retransmission of errored packets, the throughput increases in
> > > > > proportion
> > > > > to
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> data rate for the same BER, assuming that the packet
> > > length (in bytes)
> > > > > >> remains
> > > > > >> fixed.  I do not think that anyone has proposed
> changing the packet
> > > > > length,
> > > > > >> but
> > > > > >> if they did then the BER might have to be improved.  The
> > > > > throughput is of
> > > > > >> course
> > > > > >> the number of good packets in any interval of time.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> "Chang, Edward S" wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > Bin:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Yes, I agree.  The BER should be improved with data rate
> > > increase, if
> > > > > the
> > > > > >> > through put gained from higher data rate is to be
> maintained.  In
> > > > > addition
> > > > > >> > to the retry times wasted, the external sources of noise
> > > remain the
> > > > > same,
> > > > > >> > which further requires the lower BER.  These are the
> > > correct design
> > > > > goals
> > > > > >> we
> > > > > >> > should work on.  Although, we also should keep the
> > > cost-effectiveness
> > > > > in
> > > > > >> > mind to maintain optimum balance between performance
> and cost.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Ed Chang
> > > > > >> > Unisys Corporation
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> > From: bin.guo@amd.com [mailto:bin.guo@amd.com]
> > > > > >> > Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 4:57 PM
> > > > > >> > To: Edward.Chang@unisys.com; bill.st.arnaud@canarie.ca;
> > > > > >> > rtaborek@transcendata.com; dwmartin@nortelnetworks.com
> > > > > >> > Cc: stds-802-3-hssg@ieee.org; sachs@watson.ibm.com;
> > > > > "widmer@us.ibm.com
> > > > > >> > widmer@us.ibm.com widmer"@us.ibm.com
> > > > > >> > Subject: RE: Wide Area Networking for the Rest of US -
> > > the debate on
> > > > > BER
> > > > > >> > a nd other issues
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Ed,
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > If the specified BER for 1000BASE-X is 10^ -12, then to have
> > > > > the equal
> > > > > >> > error-free period the specified BER for 10G should be at
> > > > > least 10^ -13.
> > > > > >> > Based on Rich T and Rich S's BER number:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > A system BER of 10 E - 8 @  10 Mbps = a bit error every
> > > 10 seconds.
> > > > > >> > (10BASE-T)
> > > > > >> > A system BER of 10 E-12 @ 100 Mbps = a bit error every 166
> > > > > minutes, 40
> > > > > >> > seconds.        (100BASE-X)
> > > > > >> > A system BER of 10 E-10 @     1 Gbps = a bit error every 1
> > > > > minutes, 40
> > > > > >> > seconds.                (1000BASE-T)
> > > > > >> > A system BER of 10 E-12 @     1 Gbps = a bit error every 16
> > > > > minutes, 40
> > > > > >> > seconds.        (1000BASE-X)
> > > > > >> > A system BER of 10 E-12 @   10 Gbps = a bit error every
> > > 1 minutes, 40
> > > > > >> > seconds.
> > > > > >> > A system BER of 10 E-13 @   10 Gbps = a bit error every 16
> > > > > minutes, 40
> > > > > >> > seconds.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > If the TCP/IP is the only protocol 10G PHY needs to
> > > support, then the
> > > > > >> above
> > > > > >> > specified BER may be more than enough.  Moving from 1G to
> > > > > 10G, the bit
> > > > > >> > period is scaled 10X smaller while jitter and noise from
> > > some sources
> > > > > are
> > > > > >> > not scaled the same way -- much tight control should be
> > > applied to
> > > > > achieve
> > > > > >> > even the same BER.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Bin
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > ADL,AMD
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> > > From: Chang, Edward S [SMTP:Edward.Chang@unisys.com]
> > > > > >> > > Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 12:44 PM
> > > > > >> > > To:   bill.st.arnaud@canarie.ca; Guo, Bin;
> > > > > rtaborek@transcendata.com;
> > > > > >> > > dwmartin@nortelnetworks.com
> > > > > >> > > Cc:   stds-802-3-hssg@ieee.org; sachs@watson.ibm.com;
> > > > > "widmer@us.ibm.com
> > > > > >> > > widmer@us.ibm.com          widmer"@us.ibm.com
> > > > > >> > > Subject:      RE: Wide Area Networking for the
> Rest of US - the
> > > > > debate
> > > > > >> on
> > > > > >> > > BER a nd other issues
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Bill:
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > I like your idea of implementing native 10xGBE for
> > > > > intermediate long
> > > > > >> haul
> > > > > >> > > and WAN, which is a good move.  The advantage you are
> > > > > mentioning will
> > > > > >> > > greatly reduce the cost to users.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > It is true, in a TCP/IP links, the TCP flow
> control causes more
> > > > > >> > > retransmission than BER. Therefore, the extremely low
> > > BER, 10^-15,
> > > > > does
> > > > > >> > > not
> > > > > >> > > necessarily gain any more advantage than the specified BER
> > > > > of 10^-12.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Ed Chang
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> > > From: Bill St. Arnaud [mailto:bill.st.arnaud@canarie.ca]
> > > > > >> > > Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 8:52 AM
> > > > > >> > > To: bin.guo@amd.com; rtaborek@transcendata.com;
> > > > > >> > > dwmartin@nortelnetworks.com
> > > > > >> > > Cc: stds-802-3-hssg@ieee.org; sachs@watson.ibm.com;
> > > > > "widmer@us.ibm.com
> > > > > >> > > widmer@us.ibm.com widmer"@us.ibm.com
> > > > > >> > > Subject: Wide Area Networking for the Rest of US - the
> > > > > debate on BER
> > > > > and
> > > > > >> > > other issues
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > All:
> > > > > >> > > I have been following the interesting debate about BER.
> > > > > Let me bring
> > > > > >> some
> > > > > >> > > further issues into the debate.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > I am assuming that on WAN and long haul GbE the upper
> > > > > layer protocol
> > > > > >> will
> > > > > >> > > only be IP.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > On most IP links, even ones with BERs of 10^-15 there
> > > is about 1-3%
> > > > > >> packet
> > > > > >> > > loss and retransmission.  This is due to a number of
> > > > > factors but most
> > > > > >> > > typically it relates to TCP flow control mechanism from
> > > > > server bound
> > > > > >> > > congestion (not network congestion) and the use of
> > > WRED in routers.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > So, on most IP links the packet loss due to BER is
> > > > > significantly less
> > > > > >> than
> > > > > >> > > that due to normal TCP congestion.  As long as
> that ratio is
> > > > > maintained
> > > > > >> it
> > > > > >> > > is largely irrelevant what the absolute BER value is.
> > > > > There will be
> > > > > >> many
> > > > > >> > > more retransmissions from the IP layer than there will
> > > be at the
> > > > > >> physical
> > > > > >> > > layer due to BER.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Other protocols like Frame Relay and SNA are a lot more
> > > > > sensitive to
> > > > > >> high
> > > > > >> > > BERs.  IP ( in particular TCP/IP) is significantly
> > > more robust and
> > > > > can
> > > > > >> > > work
> > > > > >> > > quite effectively in high BER environments e.g. TCP/IP
> > > over barbed
> > > > > wire.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > I would like to suggest that the 802.3 HSSG group
> consider an 2
> > > > > >> solutions
> > > > > >> > > for 10xGbE WAN:
> > > > > >> > > (1) native 10xGbE using 8b/10b; and
> > > > > >> > > (2)10xGbE mapped to a SONET STS OC-192 frame
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > For extreme long haul solutions SONET makes a lot
> of sense as a
> > > > > >> transport
> > > > > >> > > technology.  However for intermediate long haul (up to
> > > 1000 km) and
> > > > > WAN
> > > > > >> > > native 10xGbE is more attractive. Native GbE can be either
> > > > > transported
> > > > > >> on
> > > > > >> > > a
> > > > > >> > > transparent optical network or carried directly on a CWDM
> > > > > system with
> > > > > >> > > transceivers. In medium range networks coding
> > > efficiency is not as
> > > > > >> > > important
> > > > > >> > > as it is in long haul networks. If coding efficiency
> > > is important
> > > > > then
> > > > > >> in
> > > > > >> > > my
> > > > > >> > > opinion, it does not make sense to invent a new coding
> > > scheme for
> > > > > 10xGbE
> > > > > >> > > when it would be just as easy to map it to a SONET frame.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > The attraction of native 10xGbE for the WAN is that it
> > > is a "wide
> > > > > area
> > > > > >> > > networking solution for the rest of us".  You don't
> > > need to hire
> > > > > >> > > specialized
> > > > > >> > > SONET engineers to run and manage your networks.  The 18
> > > > > year old kid
> > > > > >> who
> > > > > >> > > is
> > > > > >> > > running your LAN can now easily learn to operate and
> > > manage a WAN.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > In Canada and the US, there are several vendors who
> > > are willing to
> > > > > sell
> > > > > >> > > dark
> > > > > >> > > fiber at a very reasonable cost.  Right now the cost
> > > of building a
> > > > > WAN
> > > > > >> > > with
> > > > > >> > > 10xGbE and CWDM is substantially less (for comparable
> > > data rates)
> > > > > than
> > > > > >> > > using
> > > > > >> > > SONET equipment.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Bill
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > -------------------------------------------
> > > > > >> > > Bill St Arnaud
> > > > > >> > > Director Network Projects
> > > > > >> > > CANARIE
> > > > > >> > > bill.st.arnaud@canarie.ca
> > > > > >> > > http://tweetie.canarie.ca/~bstarn
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> > > > From: owner-stds-802-3-hssg@majordomo.ieee.org
> > > > > >> > > >
> [mailto:owner-stds-802-3-hssg@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of
> > > > > >> > > > bin.guo@amd.com
> > > > > >> > > > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 1999 7:28 PM
> > > > > >> > > > To: rtaborek@transcendata.com;
> dwmartin@nortelnetworks.com
> > > > > >> > > > Cc: stds-802-3-hssg@ieee.org; sachs@watson.ibm.com;
> > > > > "widmer@us.ibm.com
> > > > > >> > > > widmer@us.ibm.com widmer"@us.ibm.com
> > > > > >> > > > Subject: RE: 1000BASE-T PCS question
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > Rich,
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > The DC balance can be directly translated into jitter
> > > > > (when timing
> > > > > is
> > > > > >> > > > concerned) and offset (when threshold slicing is
> > > concerned).  You
> > > > > >> > > > only need
> > > > > >> > > > to deal with the former if the signal is 2-level
> > > NRZI, while you
> > > > > need
> > > > > >> to
> > > > > >> > > > deal with both if multi-level signal modulation is used.
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > For long term DC imbalance, it translates into low
> > > > > frequency jitter
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> > > if
> > > > > >> > > > it's low enough(<1 KHz ?), it's called baseline
> wonder.  For
> > > > > >> > > > short term, it
> > > > > >> > > > relates to Data Dependent Jitter, which is more
> difficult for
> > > > > timing
> > > > > >> > > > recovery to handle since it's not from system or channel
> > > > > imparity,
> > > > > and
> > > > > >> > > > therefore it's harder to compensate.
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > When you have a lot of jitter margin, for example in
> > > lower speed
> > > > > >> > > clocking,
> > > > > >> > > > the amount of jitter, translated from DC drift
> > > resulted from data
> > > > > >> > > > imbalance
> > > > > >> > > > coupled by AC circuit, percentage wise is a small
> > > portion of the
> > > > > clock
> > > > > >> > > > period and therefore does not contribute to much
> of the eye
> > > > > >> > > > closing.  On the
> > > > > >> > > > other hand, for high speed clocking at 10G (100
> > > ps?), the jitter
> > > > > >> > > > translated
> > > > > >> > > > from the same amount of DC drift can be a
> > > significant portion of
> > > > > the
> > > > > >> > > clock
> > > > > >> > > > period, so contributes to much large percentage wise
> > > jitter which
> > > > > >> > > > results in
> > > > > >> > > > reduced eye opening -- higher BER.
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > Dave said in his mail that "The limiting factor
> is enough RX
> > > > > optical
> > > > > >> > > power
> > > > > >> > > > to provide a sufficiently open eye." but you still
> > > have to deal
> > > > > with
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > > data dependent jitter due to DC imbalance generated
> > > > > after O/E, that
> > > > > >> can
> > > > > >> > > > close the eye further again.
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > Bin
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > ADL, AMD
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> > > > > From:     Rich Taborek [SMTP:rtaborek@transcendata.com]
> > > > > >> > > > > Sent:     Thursday, May 27, 1999 3:23 PM
> > > > > >> > > > > To:       David Martin
> > > > > >> > > > > Cc:       HSSG_reflector; Sachs,Marty; Widmer,Albert_X
> > > > > >> > > > > Subject:  Re: 1000BASE-T PCS question
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Dave,
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Do you know of any research or other proofs in this
> > > > > area? You say
> > > > > >> that
> > > > > >> > > > > lower speed SONET links regularly achieves BERs of
> > > < 10 E-15. I
> > > > > have
> > > > > >> > > > > substantial experience with mainframe serial
> links such as
> > > > > ESCON(tm)
> > > > > >> > > > > where the effective system BERs are in the same
> > > ballpark. SONET
> > > > > uses
> > > > > >> > > > > scrambling with long term DC balance and ESCON
> > > uses 8B/10B with
> > > > > >> short
> > > > > >> > > > > term DC balance. The following questions come to mind:
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > - How important is DC balance?
> > > > > >> > > > > - How does this importance scale in going to 10 Gbps?
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > I'll see if I can get some 8B/10B experts to chime in
> > > > > here if you
> > > > > >> can
> > > > > >> > > > > get scrambling experts to bear down on the
> same problem.
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > --
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > >(text deleted)
> > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > >The point here is that the SONET scrambler is not
> > > the limiting
> > > > > >> issue
> > > > > >> > > in
> > > > > >> > > > > >achieving low error rates. The issue is having enough
> > > > > photons/bit,
> > > > > >> or
> > > > > >> > > > > >optical SNR (eye-Q) to accurately recover the data.
> > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > >...Dave
> > > > > >> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > >David W. Martin
> > > > > >> > > > > >Nortel Networks
> > > > > >> > > > > >+1 613 765-2901
> > > > > >> > > > > >+1 613 763-2388 (fax)
> > > > > >> > > > > >dwmartin@nortelnetworks.com
> > > > > >> > > > > >========================
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
>