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Scott et al, While I understand there is a difference
of opinion regarding the situation in the HSSG, I will remind all to keep the
IEEE 802.3 e-mail reflector policy (http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/802/3/reflector_policy.html)
in mind, specifically the following – “IEEE
802.3 reflectors shall only be used for official business relating to IEEE
802.3 and its sub-groups. Technical discussions/questions, comments on
presentations and documents, meeting announcements, etc., are acceptable uses
of a reflector. Communications are expected to be respectful, dignified, and
germane. IEEE
802.3 reflectors are not 'free speech' forums. Subscriptions are granted to
further the purposes of IEEE 802.3 and may be revoked for inappropriate
communications. These include, but are not limited to: recruiting, advertising,
soliciting, spamming, flaming, whining, whinging and disparaging individuals or
companies.” Scott, the
comment regarding characteristics of totalitarians was inappropriate, and I will
ask you to remember the policy above when formulating emails to the reflector. I will
remind all that we have enough difficulty to deal with in the HSSG at the
current moment. Comments, such as above, are inappropriate, totally
unnecessary, and counter-productive to a consensus building process. Please
note per the policy above – “Subscriptions are granted to further
the purposes of IEEE 802.3 and may be revoked for inappropriate communications.” John D’Ambrosia Chair, IEEE 802.3 Higher Speed Study Group From: Dan, Your imitation of the
totalitarian Nikita Khrushchev was a good joke and people will understand that
you were having fun. Like all good jokes, it was based on stretching
the truth. The 100GE ONLY camp wants to set the standard the
way it's always been done with a 10X leap and that's the only way they will
accept it. We're lucky that the IEEE has a strict rule of 75% approval
for the PAR, so that consensus needs to be built to move the standard
forward. I feel that minorities such as associates from Intel, Broadcom
and SUN should have a say in the future of the HSSG. The 40GE camp has never claimed 100GE is
invalid. They claim that the HSSG - that is defining speeds beyond 10G -
is invalid without 40GE. This is the HSSG project, not the 100GE project. One characteristic of totalitarians is
that they deny obvious truths. One claim you made in Can anyone argue that doing 4 lanes of 10G
is not technically feasible while doing 10 lanes of 10G is? There are two standards-based transceivers
that should be out within a year that qualify as 40GE transceivers - the QSFP
and the X40. No 100GE transceivers are being standardized, so
only proprietary solutions are available at 100GE. Of course we could
have standard 10X10G solutions by 2010, but good luck creating a 4X25G
standard by 2010. Others have claimed that the 40GE camp has
not met the 5 criteria of the PAR. Howard Frazier showed how 40GE
met the 5 criteria in frazier_03_0507. Are there objections to this
presentation? Another objection is that 40GE will cause
confusion in the market place. With distinct PMDs, the customer should be
able to distinguish a 40GE port from a 100GE port. The customer will not
be able to plug cables willy-nilly, but they shouldn't do that anyway on
mission critical systems. Interoperability concerns will not bring links
down, but users will not be able to bring links up that are not properly
cabled/configured. The main suggestion of the 100GE ONLY camp
is that 40GE should create its own PAR. Besides doubling the work for the
IEEE standards approval process, the main concern is that the 40GE PAR would
not be approved for the reasons that the 100GE ONLY camp is currently
stating. This strategy of kicking 40GE out of the HSSG and then nipping
it in the bud in the PAR process has been described as the divide and conquer
strategy. Keeping Ethernet speeds above 10G that are very similar in characteristics
(but not PMDs) is the most straightforward process. The ugly and
distorted path is having two projects trying to proceed at the same time
when one project is a simple subset of the other project. Can 40GE be included in the HSSG PAR if it
is a simple subset of the 100GE PAR? This would require minimal standards
effort as shown in frazier_04_0507 and muller_01_0407. If the 100GE ONLY camp has
a super-majority of 75%, then 40GE will be forced to move on to
its own PAR. While we still operate under the rules of the IEEE, the 25%
minority can not be thrown under the wheels of 100GE. The free markets
are better at determining the merit of a product than tens of people in the
HSSG. Kind regards, QSFP Chair Office of the CTO Brocade From: Dove, Dan
[mailto:dan.dove@HP.COM] Hi Chris, Thanks for your concern about my
frustration with the way things were going in As I said in my presentation, it was clear
that a super-minority was willing to stall 100G progress in an effort to get an
unprepared and unjustified 40G project through the process. The debate after my
presentation, including last-minute additions to their objectives to gain
a few votes demonstrated that I was on target completely. Fortunately, the
record shows this as well. In hindsight, I have only one regret with
regard to the presentation I gave on Thursday morning. The photograph I
inserted as an attempt to provide some levity into a serious discussion
(which I am known to do) might be misinterpreted by someone who was not in
the meeting and thus unaware that it was NOT a real part of the debate, but
rather a staged photo designed to make light of the meeting location which
was taken before the debate began. I should have left that out of my
presentation so that the record would not contain any ambiguity as to
the completely professional approach I took to the debate. Now, how do we move forward? I think the path is relatively straight
forward if we choose to take a straight forward path. It can get ugly and
distorted, only if we choose to take an ugly and distorted path. The record shows that
100G Ethernet has been justified as a project for the IEEE 802.3. We have shown economic feasibility, technical feasibility,
distinct identity, compatibility, and broad market potential. Up until In The straightforward path is obvious. The
HSSG should forward a PAR for 100G Ethernet as it has been written, reviewed,
and approved by a super-majority of the HSSG prior to Geneva. The
super-minority should recognize that stalling a well developed PAR will
continue to be perceived by the majority of the HSSG, our customers, and
by outsiders, as counterproductive. In addition, as I initially proposed and
subsequently demonstrated, I am open to studying 40G as a server interconnect
solution. Consistent with my first presentation, we should consider it as a
separate PAR and perhaps in a new study group focused on that market need. Such a project would have to be shaped to
ensure that was economically feasible, distinct, and that it would
not result in market confusion or an unjustified amount of standardization
work. I think this is a reasonable set of criteria for advancing a project and
to protect our customers and the industry from yet another minority-driven
compromise that forces the industry and the market to make a decision we did
not have the discipline to make ourselves. Dan From: Chris
Cole [mailto:chris.cole@FINISAR.COM] Dan, While I share some of your frustration with the lack of
progress during this week’s HSSG meeting, and some of the individual
points in your presentation, I do not support it. I am in disagreement with
your Post-Debate Conclusions, and find their tone as not conducive to good
discussion of the best way to move forward within the HSSG. I am aware of the
passions generated during this week’s debate and understand why you wrote
your presentation, but wish that it had not been sent out. I am confident that
after your vacation travel in Good discussion of how to move forward is critically
dependant on acknowledging that 1) 100GE Broad Market Potential, and 2) 40GE
Broad Market Potential have been established well above the threshold for 802.3
Five Criteria. Continued debate of this will only lead to delay in addressing
the substantive issue of what is the best way to move forward in developing
100GE and 40GE standards. A possible framework for this discussion is outlined
in “HSSG Next Steps Proposal” presentation that HSSG participants
authorized as a post-deadline meeting submission. http://www.ieee802.org/3/hssg/public/may07/cole_03_0507.pdf An insight that has come out of the HSSG discussion of 100GE
and 40GE rates during the past several months is that fundamental development
cycles for new network equipment architectures and new server architectures
appear to be different. A new data switch architecture development requires
massive investment, which leads network equipment developers to want large
jumps in data rate, like factors of 10x, to allow a return on that investment.
An intermediate data rate causes an increase in the overall development
investment, and a shortening of the useful life of network equipment which
reduces the return on that investment. Economics of server development appear to be different and
more favorable to shorter development cycles, i.e. more frequent architecture
changes. This drives the need for more granular jumps in data rate, like 4x.
Ethernet has not done this historically, but that may be because protocols
other then Ethernet were used to bridge the gap. Going forward, more granular
Ethernet data rate steps may become the norm, rather then just a one time
anomaly. This difference in development economics is also consistent with how
often some end users replace servers versus networking equipment. It suggests
that moving forward, network data rates may go from 10G to 100G to 1T, while
server data rates go from 10G to 40G to 100G to 400G to 1T. This difference in
data rate needs is not necessarily bad for either industry. More frequent
server replacement may extend the useful life of network equipment (good for
network equipment developers), and large jumps in network data rates assures
availability of aggregation capacity to support multiple server cycles (good
for server equipment developers.) As we discuss how to best move forward with developing 100GE
and 40GE standards, any approach needs to have the following two
characteristics; 1) permits network equipment developers to have a single 100GE
architecture, i.e. does not force them into developing a dual rate 100GE/40GE
architecture, and 2) gives server equipment developers a 40GE server data rate.
It may also need the recognition that some data rates are optimized for server
interconnect and not intended for networking. I look forward to a constructive discussion on how best to
move both standards forward. Chris Subject:
[HSSG] Soliciting Support for my Presentation Date:
Thu, 31 May 2007 05:25:12 -0000
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