RE: insuring the stability of power delivery
Rick, Brian and all,
See my comments below. (Large fonts marked blue)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lynch, Brian [SMTP:brian_lynch@xxxxxx]
> Sent: ה, מאי 31, 2001 5:03 PM
> To: 'Yair Darshan'; 'Rick Brooks'; stds-802-3-pwrviamdi@xxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: insuring the stability of power delivery
> Rick, Yair, others,
> I've added comments below. I have added ===== signs
> between topics to help readability (I hope)
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Yair Darshan [mailto:YairD@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 8:44 PM
> >To: 'Rick Brooks'; stds-802-3-pwrviamdi@xxxxxxxx
> >Subject: RE: insuring the stability of power delivery
> >Rick and all,
> >See my comments below.
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Rick Brooks [SMTP:ribrooks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >> Sent: ה, מאי 31, 2001 1:02 AM
> >> To: stds-802-3-pwrviamdi@xxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: insuring the stability of power delivery
> >> Hi,
> >> I just wanted to voice one concern that I have regarding
> >power ramp up,
> >> and continuous power modes.
> >> I was reminded of this issue when I was simulating the
> >current limits in
> >> the PSE and PD and watching
> >> oscillations on the cable during startup. Yair's Pspice
> >circuit does not
> >> have these problems
> >> due to the fact that there are Op-amps in the current limit
> >feedback loops
> >> (i.e. band limited).
> > [Yair Darshan] Correct, in a typical design, the bandwidth is
> >limited, thus preventing oscillation.
> > If you are using behavioral
> >models that are
> >not limited in bandwidth, you should expect oscillations.
> > In my model I have used real
> >circuit model which is bandwidth limited, therefore, no oscillations
> [Brian Lynch] I think there is more to it than that. True the
> behavioral models may have higher bandwidth than "actual models"
> (which in Yair's case are actually characterized behavioral models,
> not actual circuit models),
[Yair Darshan] Brian, the current limits circuits in my model are
actual circuit model.
They have been tested in lab, and the results of the simulations
are similar to the lab hardware.
> but that does not guarantee a circuit
> will be free of oscillation.
[Yair Darshan] The models of the current limit circuits are tested
in the lab under the following conditions:
PD input capacitor: 10uF to 470uF
Current limiter set to 0.5A during startup.
PD Load from No load condition (10mA) to max. of 12.95W.
PD power supply switching frequency is 100KHZ , flyback topology,
current mode control, 1KHZ bandwidth.
Under all the above parameters with any combination, the system was
Under other numbers we could have oscilations,however, it can be
handled as long as we know the span of the relevant parameters.
> Depending on the gain and phase of the
> circuit, it may be just of lower frequency.
> >> It seems to me that we do not yet have a defined and
> >specified behavior
> >> that will insure that the DTE power will be
> >> delivered in a stable way.
> >> How do we guarantee that a PD from vendor "A" will not oscillate when
> >> connected to a PSE from vendor "B"?
> >> The PD as an electrical load needs to be dominated by a capacitive
> >> reactance.
> >> I think that we all agree, but this has not yet been specified.
> > [Yair Darshan] I agree that we need to specify "something" to
> >insure inter-operate, however it is not an easy task since a lot more
> >involved here.
> > The PD is not just a capacitive
> >load, it is
> >also a load with negative resistance which is frequency
> >depended and has
> >poles and zeros at its
> > reflected input impedance.
> > Your point is equivalent to the
> >following question: How a manufacture of standard switching
> >power supply
> >ensure that his power supply will be stable when it is
> >delivering power to a
> >load that is also a dc/dc switching converter. There are no
> >standards for
> >this issue since the number of application and scenarios are
> >un limited.
> >However, there are some "golden" rules that help to minimize
> >those problems.
> > 1. Keeping low ratio of L/C . L is the line inductance. C is the
> >input capacitor of the load (PD power supply input.) It means
> >large capacitance at PD power supply input.
> > 2. The total impedance's of the source output and the load input
> >should be positive (hard to define but possible)
> > 3. Add some series loss to the cable (resistor).
> [Brian Lynch] I agree with some of these points: 1) The impedance at
> each end of the cable should be small with respect to the Z of the
> cable. This is relatively easy to do for low frequencies. Care should
> be taken to insure that there is sufficient capacitance at high
> frequencies (i.e. use some ceramic caps which have low ESR and ESL).
> This will take care of any ringing on the cables.
> In our work with power systems, we have found that to insure
> stability of a system, the closed loop output impedance of the
> sourcing supply must be lower than the closed loop input impedance
> if the load power supply over the frequency band and voltages
> of interest. This concept is also discussed and taught at various
> universities. VPI and MIT are two I have direct knowledge of.
[Yair Darshan] I agree, some of the earliest and detailed work done
on this field can be found at many of Cuk and Midelbrook papers.
> To 802.3af, that means the closed loop output impedance
> of the PSE must be lower than the closed loop input impedance of the
> PD from 1Hz to some TBD frequency over the operating voltage range.
> Adding cable to the mix: The closed loop output impedance of the PSE
> plus the maximum cable impedance (R and L) must be lower than the
> closed loop input impedance of the PD plus the maximum cable impedance
> (L and R)=> Since we do not know the cable length to insure system
> stability, the closed loop output impedance of the PSE plus the cable
> impedance must be less than the PD's closed loop input impedance.
> Notice that I have said "closed loop" impedance. This means that the
> feedback loops of the PSE power supply and PD DC/DC converter plus the
> load of the PD are included in the calculations. Not an easy task for
> an open standard.
> If we could get plots of the output impedance of a number of PSE supplies,
> add in the known maximum cable impedance and some margin, we could get
> an idea of the minimum input impedance we could allow for a PD. Then
> we could specify both curves as a requirement.
> >> During power ramp up, either the PSE or PD current limit will be in
> >> effect, so we need to specify the behavior
> >> during power ramp up.
> > [Yair Darshan] If you have current limit at the PSE,
> >you solve most
> >of the problem since you have one side with limited bandwidth
> >and the most
> >important thing is
> > that you put dissipative element in series to the cable
> >that damps
> >the oscillations very rapidly or prevent them from starting.
> >(Meets rule 3
> [Brian Lynch] I disagree with the reasoning here. A if inrush current
> limiting is in the PSE, then by definition, it goes into a high impedance
> state (current limiting turns the PSE from a voltage source into a current
> source) during start up. The reason the system doesn't oscillate is
> because the capacitor is a steady state load as it charges. This is
> independent of whether the current limiting is done with a dissipative
> element (as is our case) or done by another means (as is done in most
> commercial switching power supplies). If the load had a dynamic element
> to it, such as a motor starting, we very well might see oscillations.
[Yair Darshan] Brian, in my answer above I have referred to the
case when the PSE is oscillating with the cable during startup.In this mode
you have only the current limiter in the PSE which is high impedance (and
stable circuit since it was built to be stable) and a load which is a big
capacitor. Under this conditions the system is very stable until you get to
the turn on voltage of the power supply. From this point and on, the theory
you have mentioned above is applicable.
> The problem I have with PSE inrush current limiting is the fact that the
> voltage at the PD input port drops below the 30 volt limit for a period
> of time as the bulk capacitor charges. A problem solved by putting
> inrush limiting in the PD.
[Yair Darshan] I understand that if you are using "theoretical fast
switch with out current limiting" the voltage in the PD input will drop to
zero for some time.
and if you put some inrush current limit you don't have this effect.
However, it is not clear to me why it is problem, since after few ms or so
the capacitor voltage is built up and the process continue at its normal
coarse. You need only to ensure that the switch will stay on.
(Implementation issue that we have solved and I can send the drawing if you
In my model when I tested this phenomena, I have used two resistor
and one Mosfet to implement the isolating switch and you could see that the
voltage didn't fall to zero since this circuits is going from off to on
modes through the linear region, thus possessing some impedance (some
current limiting if you will..). The point is that you don't need to add a
whole circuit of inrush current limit that its current limit is set to a low
value . It will do the work even if it is set to 1Ap.(See my presentation
from march for the circuits and results)
And last: We have check many many systems (real ones , not
simulations) that have current limit in the PSE connected to a PD with only
a big cap at the input. We haven't notice even once that there is a problem.
We check it with many different PD types , powersupply topologies etc.
Successful startups were received always.
The point is that for a given PSE peak current and time (energy) and
for a PD input capacitor that is limited to the "right" value and known max.
value for the power supply startup time , the system always work.
I hope that I understand your problem, and if I miss something
please let me know.
> >> At the present time, what behavior is specified to insure
> >that the PSE
> >> feedback loops,
> >> either to regulate the output voltage, or to limit the
> >current (protection
> >> circuits),
> > [Yair Darshan] Limit the PSE output current is the
> >most effective
> [Brian Lynch] I don't follow how this answers Rick's question. For system
> stability, I think we should specify a maximum PSE output impedance vs.
> frequency curve, and a minimum PD input impedance vs. frequency curve.
> This is independent of the inrush-current-during-startup discussion
> startup and operation are two different modes, with a different set of
[Yair Darshan] I agree. I am differentiating between two modes. One
is startup. The second is normal powering (steady state).
In startup mode: Inrush current limit in the PSE (or in the PD) with
limited bandwidth, will ensure stability with any cable and a specified
capacitor value in the PD input. This is related to Rick's
observation of oscillations during startup.
In normal powering mode(steady state) : The method of defining the
PSE max. impedance over frequency and PD min impedance over frequency
is the theoretical proven way to do it.
However, we need to think how to specify it in away that will not
complicate the design since if we have EMI input filter at the PD input
power supply, it adds to the complexity of the rules needed to maintain to
One way to do it is to include the reflected EMI filter impedance in
the PD input impedance as function of frequency.
In addition the cable effect should considered too. (we need to
check if always it adds or subtracted from the PD input impedance. )
1 more thing: The reflected input impedance is a function the input
voltage range, the power conversion topology, and the control type.
In order to have some plots of the impedance, we need to evaluate
the range of numbers that are typical to the above parameters in order not
to exclude implementations or to increase their cost.
> >> will not oscillate with the longest UTP cable or the PD?
> >> It seems that we need to address these issues or we do not
> >have a complete
> >> standard.
> > [Yair Darshan]
> > If we specify that the PSE have a current limit (which we did
> >already) we have 90% of the solution. In this case the PD will
> >need to meet
> > design rules that do not need to be specified. In any
> >case we should
> >analyze this concept under some typical operational envelope
> >that should
> >include the following parameters:
> > PSE output current limit bandwidth which is
> >unconditionally stable.
> > PD min. input capacitor
> > Cable max. inductance.
> [Brian Lynch] Just specifying the current loop bandwidth of the PSE is
> a partial solution, and specifying a PD capacitance is limiting to future
> designs and assumes the PD input impedance is capacitive (which may or
> may not be the case 5 years from now for ALL PDs.)
> I would prefer to see impedance curves which guarantee stability no matter
> the cable lengths are..
> >> Some ideas:
> >> 1) specify the maximum loop bandwidths of the PSE and PD
> >loops so that any
> >> such system will always
> >> behave as a lumped circuit. In other words, spec the loop
> >bandwidth so
> >> that it is about 6 to 10
> >> times smaller than 1/lambda of the maximum length UTP cable.
> >> We do not want sudden load changes to cause oscillation or
> >ringing, for
> >> instance.
> >> Slew rate helps, but it is a large signal behavior only.
> >> 2) specify a minimum phase margin into a "standard" PD load
> >(whatever that
> >> is)
> >> 3) specify a maximum gain at the UTP bandwidth at the longest cable.
> >> 4) both the PSE and PD need to have a specified behavior.
> >> Any other ideas or discussion on this topic?
> >> How about you power guys???
> > [Yair Darshan] See above.
> > Yair.
> [Brian Lynch] Rick, I think you are on the right track. I don't think
> we need to specify loop gains or phase margins. If we limit the PSE's
> output impedance and the PD's input impedance over the voltage range
> and frequencies of interest, I think we have normal operation covered.
> As a starting point, I'll recommend: 30 to 57 volts and 1Hz to 10Mhz.
> Startup is a special case where different curves may apply. If we hold to
> PSE's output impedance is to be less than the PD's input impedance, then
> puts inrush limiting in the PD. My thinking is this: During non-fault
> (i.e. short across the port's wires) the output of the PSE should be a
> source. This keeps the output impedance as low as possible without adding
> any cost or special circuitry. In the PD, adding inrush current limiting
> adds impedance to the input of PD and helps to improve system stability
> during startup.
> How about comments from others?
> >> thanks,
> >> - Rick