Re: [802SEC] FW: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating Procedures for IEEE Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method
Hi Jon,
Based on what you describe below - I think we are indeed in agreement :-)
Best regards,
David
"Jon Rosdahl" <jrosdahl@ieee.org> wrote on 06/04/2009 21:36:24:
> HI David,
> I am not opposed to your suggestions, nor am I asserting that each
group
> had to duplicate the effort. I also agree that by having the document
only
> point/reference up, that this could become the only 802 WG P&P, and each
WG
> would then suplement it with their own nuances that they wish to deal
with.
>
> I would say that the 802 Operations manual should not include anything
that
> is in the 802 WG P&P....so it seems that we are agreeing on most points.
>
> CHanging the draft that I posted can be changed fairly easily (IMHO) to
a
> non WG specific draft with only "up references". As this was built on
the
> AudCom Baseline, with hidden text revealed, you can see the instructions
> from AudCom to be able to decern the "thou shalt not change" paragraphs
from
> those that can be changed.
>
> So all in All, it is at least my assertion and apparently your agreement
> that we have a good start, but a bit of more focus on genericizing the
P&P
> will leave us with one that all the WG can base their own OP Man on.
>
> The next steps would be to have Matthew chime in as to where he wants to
> start and how to proceed?
>
> Do you agree?
> Jon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Law" <David_Law@3COM.COM>
> To: <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] FW: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating Procedures
for
> IEEE Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method
>
>
> > Hi Jon,
> >
> > While IEEE 802.11 has had a P&P for along time - and actually they
were
> > modelled after the IEEE 802.3 rules which we've had for even longer -
I
> > think that both these documents are actually Working Group 'Operations
> > Manual' in todays terminology as they both point extensively to the
IEEE
> > 802 rules for the fundamental operation of the Working Group on issues
> > such as membership and balloting.
> >
> > Based on this I think there should be only one IEEE 802 LMSC Working
Group
> > P&P that we all follow - as we have today - all of which was moved to
the
> > IEEE 802 LMSC Operations Manual. Each working group is then free - if
they
> > wish - to develop its own Operations Manual to supplement the new IEEE
802
> > LMSC Working Group P&P. I believe that a Working Group operations
manual
> > would be near equivalent to what we call the Working Group P&P today.
> >
> > By this approach we have to move the Working Group rules out of the
IEEE
> > 802 LMSC Operations Manual into a single Working group P&P - which I
> > believe we have to do to meet the AudCom requirements for a Working
Group
> > P&P - and then for those Working Groups that have P&Ps move these to
be
> > the Working Group Operations manual. If we take the approach of
developing
> > a Working Group P&P for each Working Group there seems to be quite a
lot
> > of duplication of effort - rather than just one single P&P that we all
> > follow.
> >
> > In respect to the discussion I mentioned I believe that took place at
the
> > opening EC meeting on Monday in March, this is recorded in the
unapproved
> > minutes as 'Law said that the LMSC rules state that there should be
> > generic WG rules that are then added to it by the WGs. Rigsbee
suggests
> > that we pick out key people to work on a base WG P&P and individual
WGs
> > can override as appropriate.' not that I particularly agree with a WG
> > being able to override the base P&P.
> >
> > As for the draft you have supplied it is indeed a great start to the
work
> > that Mat has to do and I am most certainly in support of using it as
the
> > basis of the work. In respect to specific comments I would like to see
[a]
> > the draft changed to be the 'All IEEE 802 Working Group P&P' draft,
not
> > Working group specific, [b] I would like to see all the references in
to
> > the IEEE 802 operations manual replaced with the actual text from the
IEEE
> > 802 operations manual and a change to the IEEE 802 operations manual
to
> > delete the same text and [c] all reference to Working Group Operations
> > manual removed and replaced with a single statement that Working
Groups
> > can supplement these P&P with their own Working Group specific
Operations
> > Manual.
> >
> > Taking the membership clause in the current draft - it states that the
> > rules can be found in the IEEE 802 operations manual - and
supplemental
> > rules found in the IEEE 802.11 Operations manual. This makes the
Working
> > Group P&P somewhat content free as all it does is points up and point
> > down. Instead making this the 'All IEEE 802 Working Groups P&P' would
> > allow us to remove the membership content from the IEEE 802 operations
> > manual and place it in the this draft.
> >
> > Hope this makes some sense.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Jon Rosdahl" <jrosdahl@ieee.org> wrote on 06/04/2009 15:28:37:
> >
> >> Hi David,
> >> 802.11 has had a P&P document for a long time. As I understand
it,
> > the
> >> AudCom Baseline was to be used by Working Groups to base their P&P
on.
> >> I have taken the .11 P&P and the baseline from AudCom and created the
> >> baseline that has been posted.
> >>
> >> As for the "approach discussed in March"....I will have to ask where
> > that
> >> was discussed. I have been in all the "rules Adhoc meetings" and it
was
> > not
> >> a direction counter to what I have taken. I have also provided what
I
> > have
> >> completed as a possible jump start for what Matthew will eventually
have
> > to
> >> provide for the EC to approve. Whether we have what I have crafted
as
> > the
> >> baseline for all, or some derivative is yet to be seen. AS it is
based
> > on
> >> the AudCom requirement, I beleive it to be very close to what all
will
> >> eventually get to review.
> >>
> >> I am happy for susggested changes/improvement/critics on what has
been
> >> submitted. I believe that as it did start from the AudCom baseline
that
> > has
> >> been mandated from AudCom, it will be very close to what the final
will
> > be.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Jon
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "David Law" <David_Law@3COM.COM>
> >> To: <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> >> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 3:34 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [802SEC] FW: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating
Procedures
> > for
> >> IEEE Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method
> >>
> >>
> >> > Hi Jon,
> >> >
> >> > As it stands today most of the Working Group rules - membership and
> >> > balloting are two main examples - are contained in the IEEE 802
> > Operations
> >> > Manual - and some Working Groups chose to supplement them with
their
> > own
> >> > set of rules - however the Working Group rules in the IEEE 802
> > Operations
> >> > Manual take precedence.
> >> >
> >> > I believe that the approach discussed in March - which I totally
> > support -
> >> > was that these Working Group rules in the IEEE 802 Operations
Manual
> > will
> >> > be split out into a single IEEE 802 Working Group P&P that will
meet
> > the
> >> > requirements of the AudCom Working Group model P&P. This IEEE 802
> > Working
> >> > Group P&P will then be used by all Working Groups. The Working
Group
> > can
> >> > then chose to supplement these by a Working Groups operations
manual -
> > but
> >> > does not have to.
> >> >
> >> > I believe that this approach preserves the situation we have today
> > where
> >> > this is one base set of Working Group rules within IEEE 802 and a
> > Working
> >> > Group doesn't need to take any action if it is happy to follow
these.
> > If
> >> > they wish to supplement them with a Working Groups operations
manual
> > they
> >> > can do so but the Working Group rules in the IEEE 802 level will
take
> >> > precedence.
> >> >
> >> > This approach also keeps the Working Group P&P review workload low
for
> > the
> >> > EC - as there will be just one set of IEEE 802 Working Group P&P to
> > review
> >> > instead on one from each Working Group. It also reduces the risk if
we
> > do
> >> > have an AudCom audit as we only need to make sure one set of rules
is
> > in
> >> > conformance with the AudCom model P&P.
> >> >
> >> > On review of the draft IEEE 802.11 P&P in your email below these
seem
> > to
> >> > be
> >> > based on the AudCom P&P and therefore doesn't follow the approach I
> >> > described above. I wonder therefore if I have misunderstood what is
> > being
> >> > proposed.
> >> >
> >> > Best regards,
> >> > David
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
<STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org>
> >> > wrote
> >> > on 01/04/2009 20:20:28:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi Matthew,
> >> >> In an effor to be proactive and get started on this process,
802.11
> > has
> >> >
> >> >> the following starting point:
> >> >> https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/09/11-09-0001-00-0000-802-11-
> >> >> policies-procedures.doc
> >> >>
> >> >> We hope to have our final version ready for approval of the EC at
the
> >> > July
> >> >> Plenary.
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >> Jon
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)"
<matthew.sherman@BAESYSTEMS.COM>
> >> >> To: <STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 8:12 AM
> >> >> Subject: [802SEC] FW: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating
Procedures
> > for
> >> >> IEEE Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Fellow EC Members:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> So the fun begins! Please see the notice below concerning WG P&P.
> > Some
> >> >> groups are further ahead than others in addressing this emerging
> > issue.
> >> >> I plan to start some discussion on the EC reflector this weekend
on a
> >> >> path forward. Right now I favor using the Baseline WG P&P and a
> > base,
> >> >> breaking our WG P&P rules out of the LMSC OM (now enforce), and
> >> >> augmenting the Baseline WG P&P with the material from the OM where
it
> >> >> does not conflict. This would then become a global WG P&P for all
> > IEEE
> >> >> 802 WG, and it would be up to WG if they want to have an WG OM to
> >> >> specify additional rules (or not). By the way, this is probably a
> > good
> >> >> time to revisit how WG operate within IEEE 802 and consider any
> >> >> revisions we would like.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I am willing to host teleconferences roughly monthly (consider
this
> >> >> tentative notice for teleconferences at 11 AM EDT on 5/1, 5/29,
and
> >> >> 6/26) to discuss WG P&P issue. I don't think we need anything more
> >> >> intense that that, and plan to conduct most of the dialogue on the
> > LMSC
> >> >> reflector, and at the July Plenary as to a path forward. If it
> > becomes
> >> >> too much of a burden on the LMSC reflector, I will break it out as
a
> >> >> private discussion group (with notice to the reflector so anyone
can
> >> >> participate) and periodically report to the reflector on recent
> >> >> dialogue.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Please feel free to comment on these plans.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Mat
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Matthew Sherman, Ph.D.
> >> >> Engineering Fellow
> >> >> BAE Systems - Electronics, Intelligence, & Support (EI&S)
> >> >> Office: +1 973.633.6344
> >> >> Cell: +1 973.229.9520
> >> >> email: matthew.sherman@baesystems.com
> >> >>
> >> >> ________________________________
> >> >>
> >> >> From: Yacone, Lisa [mailto:L.Yacone@ieee.org]
> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:41 AM
> >> >> To: STDS-WG-CHAIRS@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> >> >> Subject: [STDS-WG-CHAIRS] Baseline Operating Procedures for IEEE
> >> >> Standards Working Groups ? Individual Method
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> The "Baseline Operating Procedures for IEEE Standards Working
Groups
> > -
> >> >> Individual Method" (WG P&Ps) were approved by the IEEE SA
Standards
> >> >> Board on 29 January 2009 and become effective 31 March 2009. All
> >> >> working groups shall update their P&Ps to conform to this baseline
> >> >> document. The IEEE-SA requires that these procedures (Baseline
> >> >> Operating Procedures for IEEE Standards Working Groups
> >> >> <http://standards.ieee.org/board/aud/WG_PandP.doc> ) be adopted
> > intact,
> >> >> with modifications of some clauses allowed as indicated.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sponsors are expected to ensure that their working groups have
P&Ps
> > and
> >> >> that these P&Ps conform to the Baseline WG P&Ps. The Sponsor has
the
> >> >> option of developing one set of P&Ps for all of its working
groups.
> >> >> Working groups should check with their sponsor chair/standards
> >> >> coordinator to confirm how to proceed before beginning this update
of
> >> >> their P&Ps.
> >> >>
> >> >> The current active WG P&Ps shall be located on the Sponsor's web
site
> >> >> <http://standards.ieee.org/board/aud/index.html> . It is the
> >> >> responsibility of the Sponsor (see the IEEE-SA Standards Board
> >> >> Operations Manual, subclause 5.1.2
> >> >> <http://standards.ieee.org/guides/opman/sect5.html/l5.1.2> .) to
> > approve
> >> >> the policies and procedures of its working groups involved in the
> >> >> technical development work of a standard.
> >> >>
> >> >> The IEEE SA Standards Board's Audit Committee (AudCom) may request
at
> >> >> any time to review one of a Sponsor's WG P&Ps and will as a matter
of
> >> >> routine begin randomly auditing these procedures beginning in June
> > 2010.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> If you have any questions regarding implementation of the Baseline
WG
> >> >> P&Ps, please contact the AudCom Chair Ron Petersen at
> >> >> r.c.petersen@ieee.org <mailto:r.c.petersen@ieee.org> or the
AudCom
> >> >> Administrator Lisa Yacone at l.yacone@ieee.org
> >> >> <mailto:l.yacone@ieee.org> .
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ****************************************************
> >> >> Lisa Yacone
> >> >> IEEE SA Governance
> >> >> NesCom Administrator
> >> >> AudCom Administrator
> >> >> Ph: +1 732 562 6003
> >> >> ****************************************************
> >> >> IEEE: Fostering technological innovation and excellence for the
> > benefit
> >> >> of humanity.
> >> >>
> >> >> Celebrating 125 Years of Engineering the Future. www.ieee125.org
> >> >> ****************************************************
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ----------
> >> >> This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email
reflector.
> >> > This
> >> >> list is maintained by Listserv.
> >> >>
> >> >> ----------
> >> >> This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email
reflector.
> >> >> This list is maintained by Listserv.
> >> >
> >> > ----------
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reflector.
> > This
> >> > list is maintained by Listserv.
> >>
> >
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This
> > list is maintained by Listserv.
>
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