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Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members



Geoff

It would be great if you could add your collection to the archived directory.

James Gilb

On 10/04/2012 06:15 PM, John D'Ambrosia wrote:
Geoff,
Yup that is me.
I sent out the image file on Monday.

John

From: Geoff Thompson [mailto:thompson@ieee.org]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 6:43 PM
To: John D'Ambrosia
Cc: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members

John-
You are correct and I was wrong. My apologies.
(It has come a long way since I started it.)
The archive is pretty good but it isn't complete.
I think my accumulation has a more (of 802.3 at least) in it (based on folder sizes rather than 1 <-> 1 file name comparison).

Are you the one putting together the 2013 edition?

Geoff

On 410//12 1:55 PM, John D'Ambrosia wrote:
Geoff,
Superseded standards are in the "archive" directory that is on the CD.

John

From: Geoff Thompson [mailto:thompson@ieee.org]
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 4:44 PM
To: John D'Ambrosia
Cc: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members

John/All-
Just to clarify
The "current" CD contains all of our "withdrawn" standards but it does not contain "superseded" standards.
That is, when we "withdraw" a standard for the various reasons of maturity, we do put it on the CD.
When a standard gets superseded by a new revision (e.g. Std 802.3-2012 replaces and supersedes 802.3-2008),
we don't keep the old one on the next CD, though (of course), you can find it on an old CD if you keep them all.
Geoff

On 410//12 12:35 PM, John D'Ambrosia wrote:
All,
I will point out that on the CD that is handed out each Nov contains two directories of withdrawn standards and archived standards.  It is true that they don't contain old drafts, but they do contain older standards.

John
From: owner-stds-802-sec@ieee.org<mailto:owner-stds-802-sec@ieee.org> [mailto:owner-stds-802-sec@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Kraemer
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 3:11 PM
To: tony@JEFFREE.CO.UK<mailto:tony@JEFFREE.CO.UK>; STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members

Tony et al,
To clarify our practice, we retain old drafts - but they are not publically accessible.

If we are attempting to establish an 802 position we need to address policies for retention and method of access.

Bruce

From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List ***** [mailto:STDS-802-SEC@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Tony Jeffree
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 2:21 PM
To: STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Provision of obsolete draft standards to members

Yes - what Geoff said. I believe this material should be maintained in an accessible state for exactly that reason. It is often the case that drafts contain material that is relevant prior art that is removed during development and doesn't appear in the final standard. So I believe 802.11's policy is misguided in this regard.

Regards,
Tony



On 4 October 2012 18:55, Geoff Thompson <thompson@ieee.org<mailto:thompson@ieee.org>> wrote:
Adrian-
I believe that ongoing access to drafts is essential for another reason.
That is to provide (low cost) proof of prior art.
For example, there are concepts embedded in 802.9 drafts and standards that are relevant to the current market.
Given that much of the stuff in (especially) old standards never showed up at the patent office
and that patent searches don't seem to be all that effective, we need to have ready access to that material to avoid and/or combat patents being filed or prosecuted against our work.

The same is true for presentation archives

Best regards,
     Geoff Thompson


On 410//12 8:56 AM, Stephens, Adrian P wrote:
Dear 802 SEC,

A question came up in 802.11 at the last session regarding access to obsolete standards of drafts.
(e.g. drafts of amendments that were subsequently published,  and then subsequently obsoleted by a revision).
The reasons to access such old documents might be:

1.       To avoid paying a fee for the published document (yes,  I know we have Get802 and currently a $5 fee).

2.       For historical interest,  such as documenting the development of a standard for a book or paper

3.       For legal reasons

802.11 removes access to such drafts as soon as they are obsoleted by publication of an amendment or revision.
There are perhaps three reasons to do this:

1.       The terms under which access to drafts is provided is to develop the amendment/revision.

2.       Looking at old drafts can be injurious to your interoperability

3.       May dissuade members from purchasing/acquiring/using the approved document

I have researched the IEEE-SA rules and can find no statement that says that access to drafts has to be
removed at any time.


Could I have comments from the SEC members on the following:

1.       Do you believe there are any IEEE-SA rules that prevent providing everlasting access to drafts?

2.       Do you see any practical pros and cons to this?

3.       Do you do this in your group?



Best Regards,

Adrian P STEPHENS

Tel: +44 1954 204 609<tel:%2B44%201954%20204%20609> (office)
Tel: +44 7920 084 900<tel:%2B44%207920%20084%20900> (mobile)
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