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Re: [Fwd: SUO: Gathering questions and issues with IEEE motion]



Schoening, James R CECOM DCSC4I wrote:
780D366C8FDBD411859D0000F808137101EBAAC2@mail5.monmouth.army.mil"> 
John,

	Consensus needs to be achieved by the END of the standards
development process.  There's nothing wrong with starting with a thin simple
majority.  The reasons standards development is called a consensus building
process is that you often start without it.

RGS:  I think this really does reflect Jim's view of consensus.  Narrow majorities create dissension regardless of who "wins".  One should avoid votes if the outcome isn't clear.  In a standards group votes should be called to confirm an existing consensus.  If the consensus is not there a narrow "win" by either side does not persuade the other.  The only way this might create a large majority is if members of the opposing view leave in disgust - perhaps an objective.  .

I think one reason for Jim's view is so that he, as chair,  may report progress toward consensus.  This view of consensus is similar to Enron's view of revenues.
780D366C8FDBD411859D0000F808137101EBAAC2@mail5.monmouth.army.mil"> 


	As for a vote on SUMO, we had one, which I firmly believe was a
valid vote, so I must stand up against the unsubstantiated opinions of
others.
RGS:  It is worth noting that the "others" are the Board of Governors and the was decision was unanimous.  The "unsubstantiated opinions" are actually a formal decision of the appropriate authority.  Jim disagrees with the legal opinion offered by the BoG's outside counsel and prefers the opinion of Teknowledge's in house counsel.  

Note: There is a significant difference between "in house" and "outside" counsel.  Both are attorney's.  An in house counsel is an employee of the corporation subject to the same inducements and pressures as any other employee.  An outside counsel is not an employee, they are independent professionals and usually have many other clients. When a corporation wants to be sure their legal advise is not colored by internal pressures or politics (i.e. the advise is independent of the company) they usually retain outside counsel.  

I am not an attorney but in the 1970's I spent several years at the counsel table in federal court as the senior litigation analyst  (we called it the beachmaster) for IBM in the west coast antitrust trials - much larger trials than the Microsoft case.  IBM's in house General Counsel  was Nick Katzenbach a former U.S. Attorney General and Undersecretary of State who was probably the best legal strategist of the last century (also the guy who faced down George Wallace at the University of Alabama when he was deputy to Bobby Kennedy). Hundreds of other in house counsels worked for Nick - all of them very good lawyers.  No major decision was made without the advice of outside counsel and all of the courtroom litigation was done by outside counsel.  Enormous sums of money were involved, all of the cases went to the U.S. Supreme Court and we won them all.
780D366C8FDBD411859D0000F808137101EBAAC2@mail5.monmouth.army.mil"> 
We followed Robert's Rules of Order, as required by the CS SAB
P&Ps, and as all other working groups do.  IEEE leaders and lawyers were
unaware of these P&Ps and this common practice when they issued their
outside-of-due-process directive.  I'm appealing this directive in hopes
that someone in authority will stop and look at the facts.  

	This is not just about SUMO.  IFF would probably also have failed,
though the directive was contradictory on whether non-votes count.  If this
directive is enforced throughout IEEE, I'd expect half the working groups to
run into major problems.  It would not impact the end game, for strong
consensus is needed at the end of the process, but there are lots and lots
of other aspects of the process that don't need consensus, where a simple
majority has worked just find for the past century.
RGS: Perhaps th is is a reason that so many standards are that in name only and never achieve broad market acceptance.

780D366C8FDBD411859D0000F808137101EBAAC2@mail5.monmouth.army.mil"> 


Jim Schoening

Bob