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RE: WPAN/ RE: WLAN/ Agenda for July Meeting


I personally am not comfortable with placing credit card information over
the web.  Web security has simply not been around long enough for me to
believe it is truly tested and secure.  At home, I have reserved one credit
card where I have placed the lowest limit possible that I use in situations
where I just cannot avoid ordering over the web.  However, I always take the
phone option first just for this reason.  That IEEE gives me no other
"reduced cost" option to register for meetings I find objectionable.  I
think the "credit card on file" option should be maintained, if not by face
to face, than by our new secure transaction vendor.  If not that, then there
should be a phone method for leaving the credit card number.  I do not want
to provide my credit card number over the web every time I reserve for an
IEEE meeting, and believe that current technology should allow for a credit
card on file option.

Sorry if I upset anyone, but I feel compelled to express my opinions.


Matthew Sherman 
PTSM - Communications Technology Research 
AT&T Labs - Shannon Laboratory 
Room 3K18, Building 104 
180 Park Avenue 
P.O. Box 971 
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971 
Phone: +1 (973) 236-6925 
Fax: +1 (973) 360-5877 

-----Original Message-----
From: []
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:29 AM
To: Bob O'Hara
Cc: 'Ivan Reede'; 'IEEE802-11 (E-mail)';; 802sec
Subject: Re: WPAN/ RE: WLAN/ Agenda for July Meeting

Bob O'Hara wrote:
> Ivan,
> I think you are being much too paranoid for your own (or our) good.
> Certainly if your credit card is going to be compromised, it is much more
> likely to be done by a dishonest employee that has a hard copy of the
> card number from a receipt of a purchase at their store, than it is to be
> recovered from a 128-bit encrypted packet on the internet.  I would also
> you why you feel safer having your credit card stored in a Windows 98 PC
> connected to the internet (at Face to Face Events), than in an encrypted
> server at one of the more respected security companies in the world.

I didn't think Versign was a respected security company.  They do some
simple key escrow stuff, but I haven't heard much about them regarding

In any event, the computer at Verisign is much more likely to be subject
to cracking attempts than the computer at Face to Face events since it
contains more information that is valuable.

Does F2F store their credit card data on a computer without any sort of
firewall?  (That would be bad.)  Chances are they have some type of
firewall, possibly as good as the one at Verisign.

The real question is, will either one (F2F or Verisign) assume any
liability?  If not, then you have no guarantee either way.

BTW: The new digital signature laws make you liable for actions taken
with your digital signature, even if it was stolen.  So while the curent
laws provide some protection for the consumer (e.g. using a credit card
with a dishonest server), the new digital laws (UCITA, DMCA, digital
signature, etc.) tend to remove this protection when the consumer goes
online.  We should think carefully about using our cards on the net.


James Gilb
> If you have anything other than vague unease and innuendo to defend your
> position, please state it.
> I must point out that your statement that you "MUST have our credit card
> info circulate over the internet" is incorrect.  That is only required if
> you desire to take advantage of the preregistration discount.  You can
> register on site at the meeting, where no electronic record is made of
> credit card number.
> I, for one, am comfortable with the level of risk involved in credit card
> transactions over the internet.  It is not entirely safe.  But, I believe
> that it is less risky than the alternatives.
>  -Bob O'Hara
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> []On Behalf Of Ivan Reede
> Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 11:25 AM
> To: IEEE802-11 (E-mail);
> Subject: Re: WLAN/ Agenda for July Meeting
> Hello to all,
> I think we should start a public discussion on the topic of this Verisign
> registration mechanism.
> Although it may be convienet for the agency who processes our credit card
> info to have us "do it ourselfs", I think this is a major step backwards
> quality of service. I for one find it objectionable that we MUST have our
> credit card info circulate over the internet. In some conuntries, it is
> mandatro for ISP's to store records of data travelling from your PC to
> machines on the internet. This means that although maybe encrypted, an
> trail of your data can end up in an endless trace route. If anyone in one
> those "router" services is dihonest, you may end up in trouble. For most
> countries, fraud made on your credit card based on data collected on the
> internet is solely at your own risk! And the standard fraud liability
> may not apply.
> Buz, I think we need to put an end to this now. Your staement below
> states that although you may be accomodating people for this time around
> that you are intened in  making credit card apyment over the internet
> compulsary! We need to keep the possibility of "card on file" or
> pre-reistering without penality by paying our registration on site.
> Undersatnd that I am not saying registering on site without penalty but
> paying pre-registration on site or by "card on file" without penalty
> be an option. I appreciate your efforts to mechanise things. I think there
> are places where mechanisation is great. I think this is NOT one of them.
> There are ways to make this mechaism voluntary instead of compulsary.
> We, out of all people, know that TCP/IP communications are not very
> no matter how you may try to make us beleive they are. I also know that
> "forms" submitted over the internat are logged, recorded and archived by
> routers for legal audit trail reasons. There is no real control of who
> accesses those logs within most ISPs.
> People, this is a democratic group.
> I would like to hear the voice of "the people" on this topic.
> How many of you appreciate being cohersed into a form of payment over the
> internet without choice and with penalties if you don't use it.
> How many of you appreciate having your credit card data, personnal
> etc... being given to a third party without specific knowledge of what the
> third party may do with this information and whithout control over to whom
> they may sell it to?
> Just an opinion,
> Ivan Reede
> ======================================
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rigsbee, Everett O" <>
> To: "802 ALL" <>
> Cc: "802 Exec" <>
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 6:57 PM
> Subject: 802all: URGENT - More Tips on Using Web Registration !!!
> >
> > ATTENTION:  All IEEE 802 Attendees !!!
> >
> > WARNING !!!   Some additional important Information for Web Registration
> Users:
> >
> > * All Credit Card numbers must be entered with NO embedded spaces or
> dashes,
> > e.g.  NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN  for VISA, M/C, or Discover, and
> >         NNNNNNNNNNNNNNN     for AMEX
> > or you receive the generic "Transaction Declined" message which provides
> no guidance
> > on the reason for failure !!!  This is especially a problem for AMEX
> users, since the
> > the number with spaces or dashes will fit in the field (not true for the
> other cards) but
> > the transaction is always declined for invalid account number.
> >
> > I have requested that VeriSign fix this problem by removing the spaces
> dashes before they
> > test the account number, or at least provide a caption on their form,
> which collects the CC info,
> > to warn of this requirement, and they have indicated that they will look
> into it, but that may take
> > some time. So for now you just have to remember:  NO DASHES or SPACES
> CC#'s, only digits.
> >
> > We do recognize that the generic "Transaction Declined" message is
> confusing because it indicates
> > several possibilities, which may or may not apply.  Please be assured
> our system does not
> > attempt to verify addresses or ZIP codes with the ones which the credit
> card company has on file.
> > That is NOT the reason your transaction was declined !!!
> >
> > * NO  Ampersand's (i.e. "&") Are Allowed !!!  I have learned that
> chose to use
> > the "&" character as their field delimiter, so they will not permit an
> to appear in any
> > entered field. Suggested work-around is to use the word "and" instead.
> know, I know;
> > this would be simple to fix with an escape sequence or quoting
> but they
> > seem unwilling to consider doing that at present.
> >
> > Some Additional User Tips:
> >
> > * International Phone Numbers:  the VeriSign field checker does not
> a "+" (i.e. Plus
> > Sign) in front of the Country Code, even though it IS the most common
> convention.  They
> > are apparently working on a fix for this, but suggest that in the
> that you may
> > use a "-" (i.e. a Minus Sign/Hyphen) instead.
> >
> > * The "State" field has now been made optional to alleviate difficulties
> for some of our
> > International attendees whose countries don't have states.  If we
> the mandatory
> > requirement in the future, we will include the instruction to enter "NA"
> if the field is "not
> > applicable for your country".
> >
> > * There is no provision for a "Credit Card On-File" any more.  Keeping
> credit card info
> > on file is too much of a potential liability.  We only resorted to that
> option because we
> > did not have a secure method for processing payments.  Now that we have
> secure
> > (encrypted) payment mechanism we will no longer store credit card
> information.
> >
> > * The processing for your charge is now IMMEDIATE (within 24 hours of
> approval).
> >
> > We're very sorry about the start-up problems but we hope to continue
> improving as we
> > gain more experience.  Please bear with us, and if you experience or
> a problem,
> > please let us know ASAP.  Thank-you for your patience and cooperation.
> :-)
> >
> >
> > Thanx,  Buzz
> > Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
> > Boeing - SSG
> > PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
> > Seattle, WA  98324-2207
> > (425) 865-2443    Fx: (425) 865-6721
> >
> >
> >
> > Send an email message with no subject to:
> >
> >
> >
> > and put as the first 2 lines of the message the following:
> >
> > unsubscribe  stds-802-all  <your-email-address>
> > end
> >
> --------
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