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RE: [802SEC] +++ SEC Rules Change Letter Ballot +++ Ballot on SE C electronic balloting

OK,  I vote disapprove for the same reasons as Roger and Tony.  

If we're going to fix it, let's really fix it to reflect reality.  

Thanx,  Buzz
Dr. Everett O. (Buzz) Rigsbee
Boeing - SSG
PO Box 3707, M/S: 7M-FM
Seattle, WA  98324-2207
(425) 865-2443    Fx: (425) 865-6721

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Sherman [] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 9:40 PM
To: 'IEEE802'
Subject: RE: [802SEC] +++ SEC Rules Change Letter Ballot +++ Ballot on SE C
electronic balloting

Hi Everyone,

This ballot closes October 28th at Midnight EST.  I think I see the
direction things are going, but there are still many individuals who have
not expressed an opinion, or cast a vote.  Particularly if you have an
opinion that has not been expressed, please make it known.  It will make it
much easier during the ballot resolution if we know all the issues up front.
The votes and comments I have recorded to date is attached below.  Please
let me know if you see any errors.

Best Regards


Current Voting Status:

00 Paul Nikolich                                   DNV
01 Geoff Thompson                                  DNV
02 Matthew Sherman                         ABS
03 Buzz Rigsbee                                    DNV
04 Bob O'Hara                                      DNV
05 Bill Quackenbush                                DNV
06 Tony Jeffree                    DIS             
07 Bob Grow                                        DNV
08 Stuart Kerry                    DIS             
09 Bob Heile                       DIS             
10 Roger Marks                     DIS             
11 Mike Takefman                                   DNV
12 Carl Stevenson                  DIS             
13 Jim Lansford                                    DNV
            totals:      0 APP   5 DIS   1 ABS   8 DNV

10 APPROVES (2/3 majority) are required to PASS.  Ballot is FAILing.

Comments to Date:

Bob Heile []						Thu
8/29/2002 12:18 PM

disapprove.  ditto  the comment thread

--------------						Wed
8/28/2002 3:59 PM

I'm sorry but my vote is also to Disapprove this motion on similar grounds
to Carl's sentiments.


Stevenson, Carl R (Carl) []		Wed
8/28/2002 3:30 PM

I also vote disapprove for the same reasons elaborated
by Tony and Roger.

Hopefully, at the next SEC meeting we can hammer this
out and get it right once and for all.


Grow, Bob []					Wed
8/28/2002 2:34 PM


Thanks for seeing and pointing out what should have been obvious over the
years we have been working on electronic balloting.  All "letter" ballots
should be electronic.  


Roger B. Marks []				Wed
8/28/2002 10:57 AM

I vote Disapprove.

Some general comments:

Before I can vote on rules changes, I need to see the current rules. The
rules on the web are dated March 2001.

Like Tony, I oppose tinkering with the rules without fixing them.

I agree with Tony that any change to the voting ought to delete the option
of paper voting.

The change to talks about extending the duration of the ballot.
However, there is no language in the existing rules about how that duration
is set in the first place. It says only that someone will "determine the
minimum duration of the ballot". There is nothing in the rules about the
_maximum_ duration, which would be the _actual_ duration. So perhaps the
current rules already allow for an extension of the voting period.

The change talks about an extension "if a quorum is not achieved", but I
don't know what this means because the existing language doesn't say
anything about a quorum. It does say that approval requires a majority of
the members. Let's say that there are 13 SEC members and the vote is 6
approve, 1 disapprove. Motion fails for lack of a majority. But is 7 out of
13 votes a quorum? Who knows? If it's a quorum, then (according to the
proposed rule) the opportunity to extend doesn't apply.

Even if the language of the change is revised to both clarify the existing
rule and to accurately specify the new procedures, I might oppose it on
principle. My concern is that the process is like an automatic deadline
extension. I am afraid this will make it harder to get any ballot completed

In the proposed change to 3.6.3, I have no idea of the meaning of the last
sentence: "The time after the current plenary by be reduced to 15 days as
well for an electronic ballot." [If "by" is replaced by "may", I still don't
get it.]

If we are going to tinker with 3.6.3, I don't see how we can overlook a huge
problem that has been glaring at us, which is this sentence: "The Executive
Committee Vice Chair, (or other Executive Committee member) designated by
the LMSC Chair, shall distribute the proposed change to all persons who have
attended the current Plenary Session or one of the preceding two Plenary
Sessions at least sixty (60) days prior to the next Plenary Session and
further; invite and collect comments for presentation to the Executive
Committee." WE DON'T DO THIS! Unless we change the rules, or unless we
change our habits, we will violate the rules every time we make a rules
change. [While we sometimes send a note to stds-802-all, this obviously
doesn't satisfy the rule literally, and it doesn't satisfy it in spirit

I think that, as an SEC, we ought to put more homework into proposed rules
changes before they go to ballot. This would make for a more efficient


Tony Jeffree []					Wed
8/28/2002 6:25 AM

I agree with the intent of this change; however, I have to vote Disapprove, 
as I see no reason why we would ever do anything other than an electronic 
ballot, now or in the future. In other words, rather than fixing up the 
text to deal with both paper and electronic ballots, I believe we should 
fix up the text to remove paper ballots and to make it clear that all 
balloting that we conduct from here on will be electronic.

Rationale: There is absolutely no point in incurring the expense & 
administrative pain of paper balloting given that we have a better, more 
efficient, and cheaper alternative in the form of electronic balloting. I 
believe we will never conduct any more paper ballots in the future - I, for 
one, would not vote to approve expenditure of LMSC funds on a paper ballot, 
in the unlikely event of one being proposed, and I suspect I wouldn't be 
the only Exec member with that view. Therefore, we shouldn't complicate our 
rules by trying to accommodate two mechanisms where one is all that we 
actually need.


Matthew Sherman
Vice Chair, IEEE 802
Technology Consultant
Communications Technology Research 
AT&T Labs - Shannon Laboratory 
Room B255, Building 103 
180 Park Avenue 
P.O. Box 971 
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971 
Phone: +1 (973) 236-6925 
Fax: +1 (973) 360-5877 

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Sherman []
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 11:29 PM
To: 'IEEE802'
Subject: [802SEC] +++ SEC Rules Change Letter Ballot +++ Ballot on SEC
electronic balloting

Dear SEC members,

Attached you will find the text for an SEC rules change letter ballot on SEC
Electronic Balloting.  Note that this letter ballot was originally approved
at the Friday March 15, 2002 plenary session, but was never sent out.  I had
to regenerate the text to be balloted from the minutes of the March SEC
meeting.  It happens there have been some minor updates to the text in
question based on more recent rules changes ("1st" has been inserted in
front of "Vice Chair").  Also the phrase "(or other Executive Committee
member designated by the LMSC Chair)" was not indicated as a change in the
March SEC meeting minutes, but is clearly added text.  Finally, I added an
editorial comma after "The Chair" in  The text could probably be
improved with further such editorial, but I'll leave that for the rest of

The scope and purpose of the changes being balloted is as follows:

Scope:  To improve the SEC process for electronic balloting.

Purpose: To facilitate the SEC consensus process.

The ballot opens August 27, 2002 and closes October 28, 2002 12 midnight EDT
(remember if you do not vote or abstain it is equivalent to a DISAPPROVE
vote).  Buzz, please ensure this gets sent to the "802ALL" email list as
well.  WG chairs, if you haven't already done so, please invite your WG
members to comment through you.  


 <<SEC e-ballot rules change.pdf>> 

Matthew Sherman
Vice Chair, IEEE 802
Technology Consultant
Communications Technology Research 
AT&T Labs - Shannon Laboratory 
Room B255, Building 103 
180 Park Avenue 
P.O. Box 971 
Florham Park, NJ 07932-0971 
Phone: +1 (973) 236-6925 
Fax: +1 (973) 360-5877