RE: [802SEC] +++EC Motion+++ Rules Change Ballot on Roll Call Votes
I also disapprove. My reasons are essentially
identical to Roger's.
Carl
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger B. Marks [mailto:r.b.marks@ieee.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:52 PM
> To: Mike Takefman
> Cc: stds-802-sec@ieee.org
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] +++EC Motion+++ Rules Change Ballot on Roll Call
> Votes
>
>
>
> I vote Disapprove.
>
> We have heard about the use of roll-call votes to separate
> voters from non-voters. Each WG has a need to handle this
> problem, and each has a long tradition of solving it
> effectively. In 802.16, for instance, we use voting tokens.
> For us, this a more efficient solution than roll-call voting.
>
> We have also heard that a forced roll-call voting is somehow
> tied to "block voting." However, "block voting" is not
> prohibited, or even mentioned, in the P&P. The P&P simply
> gives the WG Chair the authority to "Determine if the Working
> Group is dominated by an organization, and, if so, treat that
> organizations' vote as one (with the approval of the
> Executive Committee)." Since the Chair makes the procedural
> decisions, the Chair already has the power to order a roll
> call vote if that will assist his or her determination or
> help prepare supporting material for presenting a case to the EC.
>
> Since I see no need for this P&P change, I am, by default,
> opposed. We seem to have reached a general consensus that our
> P&P should be less, not more, specific. It was also my
> understanding that we (informally) agreed to operate under a
> rules-change moratorium while Mat revises the P&P format.
> Because of that moratorium, we put even high-priority rules
> changes on the back burner.
>
> Finally, there is the question of the possible negative
> impact of this rules change. I certainly see such potential.
> The proposal would allow 20% of the membership to force a
> group to spend up to 20% of its time counting the roll (not
> to mention the time administering the motion to initiate the
> roll call vote). That is, in my view, an unacceptable
> inefficiency of process. And the real cost to the group's
> progress can be much closer to 100%. For instance, in 802.16,
> we finalize the group's progress for the week in a dense
> Closing Plenary. Giving up 20% of the Closing Plenary to roll
> calls could cost us much more than 20% of our week's progress.
>
> The WG Chair has a lot of responsibility and can't carry it
> out without the ability to manage the agenda. This P&P change
> would make the agenda even more unpredictable. It could also
> easily backfire and result in a WG being "dominated by an
> organization" whose tactic is to force roll-call votes.
>
> Roger
>
>
>
> >Dear EC Members,
> >
> >as per the motion at the November Plenary closing
> >EC meeting I am starting a (35 day) ballot on
> >the proposed rule change. I am extending the ballot
> >to account for the upcoming US Thanksgiving holiday
> >(and yes Canada has such a holiday - its just a month
> >earlier).
> >
> >I will be running a face to face comment resolution session
> >during the January Interim Session to try to finalize
> >the language. I believe sunday night is the best time
> >to hold such a meeting, but I am open to other suggestions.
> >
> >The language you will find enclosed is different (and
> >I believe improved) from what was shown at the EC meeting.
> >
> >1) It attempts to provide better sentence structure
> >(less of a run-on sentence).
> >2) It addresses an issue brought up to me personally
> >by one of the 2 dissenting voters to the rules change
> >motion in terms of insuring that roll call votes cannot
> >be used as a delaying tactic.
> >
> >Personally, I have only seen roll call votes used in dot17
> >sparingly and they have in fact helped me determine when a group
> >was attempting to block concensus / progress. As such, there
> >has never been an issue with their use as a delay tactic,
> >but I do have sympathy for such a concern.
> >
> >cheers,
> >
> >mike
> >--
> >Michael Takefman tak@cisco.com
> >Distinguished Engineer, Cisco Systems
> >Chair IEEE 802.17 Stds WG
> >3000 Innovation Dr, Ottawa, Canada, K2K 3E8
> >voice: 613-254-3399 cell:613-220-6991
> >
> >
> >Attachment converted: TiDrive:802.0-RollCall_P&P_Revisi
> 1.doc (WDBN/MSWD) (0023B7AD)
> >Attachment converted: TiDrive:802_RollCall_P&P.pdf (PDF
> /CARO) (0023B7AE)
>
>