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RE: [802SEC] +++EC Motion+++ Rules Change Ballot on Roll Call Votes

I also disapprove.  My reasons are essentially
identical to Roger's.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger B. Marks []
> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:52 PM
> To: Mike Takefman
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] +++EC Motion+++ Rules Change Ballot on Roll Call
> Votes
> I vote Disapprove.
> We have heard about the use of roll-call votes to separate 
> voters from non-voters. Each WG has a need to handle this 
> problem, and each has a long tradition of solving it 
> effectively. In 802.16, for instance, we use voting tokens. 
> For us, this a more efficient solution than roll-call voting.
> We have also heard that a forced roll-call voting is somehow 
> tied to "block voting." However, "block voting" is not 
> prohibited, or even mentioned, in the P&P. The P&P simply 
> gives the WG Chair the authority to "Determine if the Working 
> Group is dominated by an organization, and, if so, treat that 
>  organizations' vote as one (with the approval of the 
> Executive Committee)." Since the Chair makes the procedural 
> decisions, the Chair already has the power to order a roll 
> call vote if that will assist his or her determination or 
> help prepare supporting material for presenting a case to the EC.
> Since I see no need for this P&P change, I am, by default, 
> opposed. We seem to have reached a general consensus that our 
> P&P should be less, not more, specific. It was also my 
> understanding that we (informally) agreed to operate under a 
> rules-change moratorium while Mat revises the P&P format. 
> Because of that moratorium, we put even high-priority rules 
> changes on the back burner.
> Finally, there is the question of the possible negative 
> impact of this rules change. I certainly see such potential. 
> The proposal would allow 20% of the membership to force a 
> group to spend up to 20% of its time counting the roll (not 
> to mention the time administering the motion to initiate the 
> roll call vote). That is, in my view, an unacceptable 
> inefficiency of process. And the real cost to the group's 
> progress can be much closer to 100%. For instance, in 802.16, 
> we finalize the group's progress for the week in a dense 
> Closing Plenary. Giving up 20% of the Closing Plenary to roll 
> calls could cost us much more than 20% of our week's progress.
> The WG Chair has a lot of responsibility and can't carry it 
> out without the ability to manage the agenda. This P&P change 
> would make the agenda even more unpredictable. It could also 
> easily backfire and result in a WG being "dominated by an 
> organization" whose tactic is to force roll-call votes.
> Roger
> >Dear EC Members,
> >
> >as per the motion at the November Plenary closing
> >EC meeting I am starting a (35 day)  ballot on
> >the proposed rule change. I am extending the ballot
> >to account for the upcoming US Thanksgiving holiday
> >(and yes Canada has such a holiday - its just a month
> >earlier).
> >
> >I will be running a face to face comment resolution session
> >during the January Interim Session to try to finalize
> >the language. I believe sunday night is the best time
> >to hold such a meeting, but I am open to other suggestions.
> >
> >The language you will find enclosed is different (and
> >I believe improved) from what was shown at the EC meeting.
> >
> >1) It attempts to provide better sentence structure
> >(less of a run-on sentence).
> >2) It addresses an issue brought up to me personally
> >by one of the 2 dissenting voters to the rules change
> >motion in terms of insuring that roll call votes cannot
> >be used as a delaying tactic.
> >
> >Personally, I have only seen roll call votes used in dot17
> >sparingly and they have in fact helped me determine when a group
> >was attempting to block concensus / progress. As such, there
> >has never been an issue with their use as a delay tactic,
> >but I do have sympathy for such a concern.
> >
> >cheers,
> >
> >mike
> >--
> >Michael Takefman    
> >Distinguished Engineer,       Cisco Systems
> >Chair IEEE 802.17 Stds WG
> >3000 Innovation Dr, Ottawa, Canada, K2K 3E8
> >voice: 613-254-3399       cell:613-220-6991
> >
> >
> >Attachment converted: TiDrive:802.0-RollCall_P&P_Revisi 
> 1.doc (WDBN/MSWD) (0023B7AD)
> >Attachment converted: TiDrive:802_RollCall_P&P.pdf (PDF 
> /CARO) (0023B7AE)