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Re: [802SEC] +++ EC P&P Revision Ballot +++ compliance with SA Model P&P

Hi Bill,

First, thanks for doing this.  I know this was a major investment of your time that could have been spent many other ways.  That said, it does seem to depart quite a bit from what I had proposed.  I don't think I can blanket accept everything you suggest, and I probably don't understand the rationale for everything you have done.  I think it is likely you don't understand the rationale for everything I have done in my draft either.

So let me suggest this.  I think it would help if you and I had some in depth discussions on the phone and try and develop consensus on a single draft between us prior to the meeting in Portland.  My concern is that our changes are so extensive that (especially with a larger group of people) we would need the whole week to reach consensus on a document.  The two of us seem to be the most motivated at the moment.  I think if we spend some time on the phone, we might be able to come up with a single document that we both agree on.  If there are any large disagreements, we can try and bracket them and deal with them in a larger group.

Currently I'm away from the office, but would like to open discussions this weekend if you have the time.  After 9 PM East Coast time works best for me since I'll be on a cell, and don't want to pay for the minutes.  Is it possible you will have some time this weekend?  What will work for you?  If not this weekend, what might work next week?  Note that I may be slow to pick up e-mail as well, but am checking at least once per day.

Thanks again,


Matthew Sherman, PhD
Senior Member Technical Staff
Office: +1 973.633.6344

-----Original Message-----
[]On Behalf Of Bill
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] +++ EC P&P Revision Ballot +++ compliance with SA
Model P&P


Well, this took longer that I wanted.

Upon reviewing the proposed reformatted LMSC P&P, I have a number of concerns.

1. This change was supposed to be limited to a
reformatting/reorganization of the LMSC P&P and minor editorial
corrections. However, the inclusion of some of the Model Operating
Procedures text has enlarged the scope of the proposed change. And some
of the text that has been added is possibly inconsistent with the
existing LMSC P&P.

2.      The reformatted LMSC P&P does not, in my view, really comply with the
format of the Model Operating Procedures. The bulk of the existing LMSC
P&P has been placed in section 7 "Subgroups Created by the Sponsor" and
section 8 "LMSC Sessions" without change except for moving text on the
opening plenary meeting into the section on Plenary Sessions. Sections 5
"Officers", 6 "Membership", 8 "Quorum", 9 "Vote" and 12 "Appeals" are
essentially content free and just point to other sections.

3.      The Model Operating Procedures are certainly useful for new and/or
small standards committees.  However, upon examination, the Model
Operating Procedures, are, in my view, not mature and not well suited to
a complex organization such as the LMSC. The Model Procedures are
incomplete (no sections are provided for revisions or special
procedures), redundant (the suggested content of section 1.
"Organization of the Sponsor" is a subset of the suggested content of
Section 3. "Officers") and somewhat simplistic.

4.      There is no IEEE or IEEE-SA requirement that the LMSC P&P must use
the Model Operating Procedures format.  It is only a recommendation.

5. Slavish conformance to any model is undesirable if it reduces
document clarity or increases complexity because the model is not well
suited to the task.

5.      The proposed reformatting does not solve any of the significant
problems with the LMSC P&P that need to be solved. While I believe there
are problems with the organization of the existing LMSC P&P, the
significant problems are with the text, not the format/organization. I
believe that the proposed reformatting does very little if anything to
simply or clarify the P&P and in fact makes the P&P less clear in a
number of places by adding sections whose only purpose is to point to
other sections where the topic is actually covered or by having related
topics covered in more than one place.

6.      The proposed reformatting does not make solving any of the
significant problems that do exist in the LMSC P&P any easier.

Since there are problems with the organization of the current P&P, I
have attached some alternate proposals.  They take advantage of some of
the reorganization that are proposed in the ballot change, but add text
only where necessary to knit the reorganized sections together.  This
reorganization is done in three steps to make it more evident what is happening.

        1) The file "LMSC_P&P_ReformatOnly1.pdf" contains only some
reorganization of existing P&P text.  There are no changes to the text
itself.  And the 10 Procedures are left untouched at the end of the document.

        2) The file "LMSC_P&P_ReformatEdit2.pdf" contains the changes of step
1, but no longer marked as changes, plus some minor editing to make the
old text fit the new format and to correct some typos, inconsistencies
and lack of clarity in the recently added/modified sections 5.1.6, 6,
6.2.1, 6.2.2, 6.3 and Procedure 1.

        3) The file "LMSC_P&P_ReformatEdit3.pdf" contains the changes of steps
1 and 2, but no longer marked as changes, plus some additional
reorganization and editing to make the reorganization flow together.
This text reorganization step moves some of the Procedures to more
appropriate places.

Please note that no "new" text has been added in steps 1 through 3.

The file "LMSC_P&P_ReformatEdit3.pdf" is my proposal for the resolution
of my comments.

Then I have taken an additional step in which I suggest several new
sections (2.3 through 2.6) and possible text for some of those sections
to make the P&P at bit more complete and to look at bit more like the
Model Operating Procedures.

        4) The file "LMSC_P&P_ReformatEdit4.pdf" contains the changes of steps
1 through 3, but no longer marked as changes, plus possible new sections
and new text.

Step 4 is a suggestion for FUTURE work, NOT for this ballot



Bill Quackenbush wrote:
> Matt,
> I vote DISAPPROVE with comments to follow.
> Thanks,
> wlq
> "Sherman, Matthew J. (US SSA)" wrote:
> >
> > Dear EC members,
> > This email initiates a EC P&P Revision Ballot.  The ballot opens today - May 15, 2004 and closes June 15, 2004 at 11:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time. (Remember if you do not vote or abstain on this ballot it is equivalent to a DISAPPROVE vote). Buzz, please ensure this gets sent to the "802ALL" email list as well. WG chairs, if you haven't already done so, please invite your WG members to comment through you.
> > Attached you will find a zip file containing:
> >         1) A P&P Revision cover letter
> >                         (802.0-Compliance_with_SA_Model_P&P-Balloted_P&P_Revision_ballot.pdf)
> >         2) Text for the P&P revision
> >                         (SA_Model_compliant_LMSC_P&P_040514.doc)
> >         3) A mapping of text from the "old" P&P to the "new" P&P
> >                         (LMSC_P&P-March_2004_R0_reformat-map_040514.doc)
> > The scope of this P&P revision is to bring the LMSC P&P into "editorial" conformance with the SA Model Sponsor P&P.  That is to match the format of the SA model Sponsor P&P, but not to add or deleted any "governance" content from the current LMSC P&P. (I use the term "Governance" here is sense analogous to the term "normative" in standardese.) This letter ballot was approved at the Friday, March 19, 2004 EC meeting. The rationale for the changes being balloted are as given in the attached cover letter.
> > The actual changes are given in the second document listed above.  The changes are made in Word track changes mode against the SA model Sponsor P&P ( Normally, I would provide a pdf of the changes rather than a word document, but I have placed embedded comments in the file, and don't know how to maintain them in pdf format.  While this is a set of "editorial changes" to bring our P&P into the same overall format as the SA model P&P, the changes are very extensive, and a number of issues for future P&P are noted.  Please review the changes closely.  I expect I will have additional recommendations for editorial changes prior to the close of this ballot.  Note that all embedded comments will be removed from the document once approved, prior to formal release.  The comments are there to highlight issues that have arisen during the reformatting process that will have to be addressed in a future ballot as I believe them to requ!
> > governance changes.
> > Note that a reformat map is provided in the third document listed above.  It is a heavily commented version of the current P&P that indicates where in the "New P&P" each section of text from the "old P&P" gets mapped.  It will help the reader to confirm that I have neither added nor deleted anything other than editorial content in reformatting the P&P.
> > Regards,
> > Mat
> > PS - Note that because of corporate firewall issues, I have renamed the zip file extension to "renamed_zip".  Prior to attempting to open the zip file you should change the file extension back to "zip".  If anyone has problems opening the file please contact me and I will provide the contents in uncompressed form.
> >
> >  <<Compliance_with_SA_Model_P&P-Balloted_P&P_Revision_ballot.renamed_zip>>
> >
> > Matthew Sherman, PhD
> > Senior Member Technical Staff
> > Office: +1 973.633.6344
> > email:
> >
> > ----------
> > This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.  This list is maintained by Listserv.
> >
> >   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >                                                                                Name: Compliance_with_SA_Model_P&P-Balloted_P&P_Revision_ballot.renamed_zip
> >    Compliance_with_SA_Model_P&P-Balloted_P&P_Revision_ballot.renamed_zip       Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream)
> >                                                                            Encoding: base64
> >                                                                         Description: Compliance_with_SA_Model_P&P-Balloted_P&P_Revision_ballot.renamed_zip

This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.  This list is maintained by Listserv.

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