Still awaiting a decision on this issue by PatCom since December.
Sincerely,
Jim Harlan • Senior Director, Standards & Competition Policy • InterDigital, Inc.
515 C St NE, Washington, DC 20002 • T: +1 202-349-1713 •
Jim.Harlan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Jim Harlan <Jim.Harlan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2020 12:11 PM
To: PP-DIALOG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [PP-DIALOG] IEEE SA Standards Board Patent Committee (PatCom) - December 2020 meeting minutes available online
|
CAUTION: This is an external email. Please report anything suspicious.
|
Hi y’all,
- I hope everyone is staying happy and healthy during this unusual time.
- Not meaning to belabor this point, but again, I have to respectfully disagree with Don, Andrew, and others who don’t believe that the PatCom minutes should be fully transparent.
- In 802.3 November 2008 Plenary, David Law chaired the IEEE 802.3 meeting in Dallas, TX. The minutes of this meeting are at:
- Interestingly, the minutes recorded the following motion:
- "MOTION #2
- Directed position that the chair of 802.3 vote disapprove on the P802.15.4f PAR.
- M: G. Thompson
- S:
- Motion failed for lack of a second 13-Nov-2008 2:05PM"
- This motion is recorded in the minutes although the motion was not seconded. It's even explicitly stated that this motion failed *because* of a lack of a second.
- It’s been 802 past practice to minute motions that fail for lack of being seconded.
- It is provided for in Robert’s Rules (i.e., we are not debating the interpretation).
- And according to Don, “we operate under Robert’s Rules.”
- That all being said, I am still unsure of the argument to refuse the addition of Guido’s motion in the minutes, unless there’s another reason to not follow 802 procedure and keep it
out.
Enjoy your holiday season and stay safe.
Jim Harlan • Senior Director, Standards & Competition Policy • InterDigital, Inc.
515 C St NE, Washington, DC 20002 • T: +1 202-349-1713 •
Jim.Harlan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
G’day all
It is always fun watching people debate
Robert’s Rules Of Order. I remember well my very first standards meeting many years ago (ANSI X3T9.5 in 1987) in which they spent the whole day (seriously) debating some fine point of Robert’s Rules Of Order. It was very educational for me but a complete waste
of everyone’s time. Not much has changed.
☹
In my experience in IEEE-SA, the most common practice is that motions not seconded are not included in the minutes. Based on Don’s comment below, this seems to be allowed by some interpretations of Robert’s Rules. Of course, there are
exceptions in some groups. This also seems to be allowed by other interpretations of Robert’s Rules.
The usual justification for not including such motions is that the lack of a second is indicative of the complete lack of interest by the body in the topic. While recording lack of interest may be useful sometimes, it mostly seems like
a way to create unnecessarily long minutes. It also stops silly motions, like “Move that 2 + 2 = 5”, filling the minutes (BTW: I am not suggesting Guido’s proposal fits into this category).
It is up to the body (PatCom in this case) to decide what is in the minutes (and what is not in the minutes), as long as they stay within the rules of the organization (IEEE-SA in this case). In this situation, the rules are apparently
open to reasonable interpretation, and so it effectively is up to PatCom to decide what is in their minutes when they are approved. Let’s leave it to them.
Andrew
Giving this another try…
Please see highlighted language below.
Thanks,
Jim Harlan • Senior Director, Standards & Competition Policy • InterDigital, Inc.
515 C St NE, Washington, DC 20002 • T: +1 202-349-1713 •
Jim.Harlan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Did some research on this as it’s new to me and from what I’ve found:
-
The motions that should be recorded according to RONR 12th ed.48:4(6) include:
-
“[A]ll main motions (10) or motions to bring a main question again before the assembly (6:25–27; 34–37) that were made or taken up—except, normally, any that were notwithdrawn....”
-
Since a motion that dies for lack of a second has been "made", it should be recorded. That's out of the pages of RONR, not from the Association.
-
Given, to quote Don, “we operate under Robert’s Rules”, it sounds like Guido’s motion should be in the minutes.
FWIW,
Jim Harlan • Senior Director, Standards & Competition Policy • InterDigital, Inc.
515 C St NE, Washington, DC 20002 • T: +1 202-349-1713 •
Jim.Harlan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The Robert’s Rules Association has issued a non-binding opinion that a motion failing for a lack of a secluded SHOULD be recorded. NON-BINDING.
Robert’s Rules themselves do not state such a requirement. We operate under Robert’s Rules not under the recommendations of the Association.
-----
Don Wright, President
Standards Strategies, LLC
VP, IEEE SA Products and Services Innovation
Past President, IEEE Standards Association.
Member, IEEE SA BoG.
Member, IEEE SA CAG.
Member, IEEE-ISTO Board of Directors
Member, IEEE Governance Committee
Past Member, IEEE Board of Directors
Past Chair, IEEE SA Standards Board
Past Chair, INCITS Executive Board
I’m sorry Don, but I respectfully disagree under Robert’s Rules of Order, (link,
http://www.rulesonline.com/rror-10.htm#60)
60. The Minutes. The record of the proceedings of a deliberative assembly is usually called the Minutes, or the Record, or the Journal. The essentials of the record are as follows: … (f) all the main motions
(except such as were withdrawn) and points of order and appeals, whether sustained or lost, and all other motions that were not lost or withdrawn;
A motion made but not seconded is a failed motion that should be minuted. It is not a lost or withdrawn motion.
Thus, I believe the minutes should be amended to read:
“2. APPROVAL OF THE AGENDA
Guido Hiertz proposed adding an agenda item to discuss status re the September 2020 DOJ Business Review Letter to IEEE. His motion failed after not being seconded.
In response, Chair Law made the following statement: ….”
Or something to that effect.
Jim Harlan • Senior Director, Standards & Competition Policy • InterDigital, Inc.
515 C St NE, Washington, DC 20002 • T: +1 202-349-1713 •
Jim.Harlan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
A motion made but not seconded is not consider by the body and is treated as if it was never made. Therefore, it is not recorded in the minutes.
-----
Don Wright, President
Standards Strategies, LLC
VP, IEEE SA Products and Services Innovation
Past President, IEEE Standards Association.
Member, IEEE SA BoG.
Member, IEEE SA CAG.
Member, IEEE-ISTO Board of Directors
Member, IEEE Governance Committee
Past Member, IEEE Board of Directors
Past Chair, IEEE SA Standards Board
Past Chair, INCITS Executive Board
Hello Dave et al.,
I think these minutes are incomplete because they don’t reflect the motion that Guido Hiertz made, in which he proposed adding an agenda item to discuss status re the September 2020
DOJ Business Review Letter to IEEE. His motion failed after not being seconded by another member of PatCom, but shouldn’t the motion and
its failure be reflected in the minutes nonetheless for the sake of completeness?
Thanks,
John Kolakowski
From: Dave Ringle <d.ringle@xxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 11:04 AM
To: PP-DIALOG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [PP-DIALOG] IEEE SA Standards Board Patent Committee (PatCom) - December 2020 meeting minutes available online
Regards,
******************************************************************
David L. Ringle
Director, IEEE-SA Governance
IEEE Standards Association
445 Hoes Lane
Piscataway, NJ 08854-4141 USA
TEL: +1 732 562 3806
FAX: +1 732 875 0524
EMAIL: d.ringle@xxxxxxxx
******************************************************************
To unsubscribe from the PP-DIALOG list, click the following link:
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=PP-DIALOG&A=1
To unsubscribe from the PP-DIALOG list, click the following link:
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=PP-DIALOG&A=1
To unsubscribe from the PP-DIALOG list, click the following link:
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=PP-DIALOG&A=1
To unsubscribe from the PP-DIALOG list, click the following link:
https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=PP-DIALOG&A=1
To unsubscribe from the PP-DIALOG list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=PP-DIALOG&A=1
|