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Re: [802SEC] Responses on venue for March 2009

Buzz and Carl,

I want to set the record straight. Time after time past history about
the London meeting gets misrepresented and I'm getting pretty tired of

Both 802.1 and 802.3 indicated from the beginning of the London plans
that they didn't want to go to that interim. There was never an
"overwhelming" desire of all groups to go there. There was a unanimous
vote of the EC to approve the London interim after contract negotiation
issues had gotten hairy and then were ironed out, but my intent in
voting for that motion was to allow the London meeting for the groups
that said they wanted to go there - I believe that was true of some
other voters. Before, during and after that vote, it was clear that not
all working groups were going to meet there - there wasn't any sudden
change or "boycott." Given that both groups had been clear from the
beginning that the London interim was only acceptable if they were
allowed to opt out, the last minute attempt to force them there was
unjustified and did not create good will. If that had been a requirement
of London, I would never have voted to approve the meeting.

London had the problem of a very expensive hotel in an area where there
are plenty of more reasonably priced rooms so even for groups that met
there there was not as good a room night tally as would usually occur.
Rome has a similar potential - if I recall correctly, these rates aren't
as high as London but there are certainly other places to stay in Rome
that are more budget priced. 802.1 just met in Stockholm with similar
room rates and that seems to have gone okay though there wasn't much in
the way of cheaper rooms available. 

In any case, I asked a question about room night pick-up earlier. My
understanding from what Buzz said is that Rome could be set up so that
we aren't as dependent on room nights as London was. 

To correct another error below: Steve isn't responsible for finding
802.1 venues, he is an 802.3 officer though of course he has worked with
802.1 on the occasions where we had a joint interim location. 802.1 has
had many recent non-NA interims. Bejing in addtion to York, Geneva and

I don't expect any Working Groups to opt out of a plenary. I also don't
expect to ever again vote for an 802 hosted interim except in a case
like the Vancouver interim some years ago where it was set up to avoid a
penalty because a plenary had insufficient room night pick-up (proof
that even an NA meeting in one of our tried-and-true favorite venues can
have that problem).

Carl, I also felt your earlier comment about the rest of the 2009 and
2010 meetings being booked non-NA was uncalled for. All the venue
decisions for those dates were discussed at EC meetings. 


-----Original Message-----
From: ***** IEEE 802 Executive Committee List *****
[mailto:STDS-802-SEC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of Carl R. Stevenson
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [802SEC] Responses on venue for March 2009


Comments in response "in-line" below for context.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stds-802-sec@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> [mailto:owner-stds-802-sec@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG] On Behalf Of 
> Rigsbee, Everett O
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 1:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [802SEC] Responses on venue for March 2009
> Carl,  
> I have just completed a very lengthy and intensive negotiation process
> with the London hotels that were looking to assess a very 
> large penalty
> on us for failing to meet required pick-up for our January Session
> because after "Overwhelming Support" for the London meeting at the SEC
> and our signing contracts for a full plenary type session, two of our
> larger WGs decided to boycott that meeting and we were left 
> holding the
> bag.  We were very lucky that time that I was able to 
> extricate us from
> that mess with a substantially reduced penalty payment ($25K).  We may
> not be nearly as lucky next time.  With the possibility of penalties
> that could literally bankrupt our treasury looming on the horizon I do
> not wish to rush into some nNA deal unless I have some assurance from
> each of the WGs that we will not have a repeat of what happened in
> London.  That is my job; it is what I am not getting paid to do, and I
> will do it as I see fit.  We DO need to be careful here to not put
> ourselves in jeopardy and I am trying my best to do that.  It does not
> help to have you accusing me of trying to sabotage the nNA venue.  I
> just want to be really sure that we do have solid support for 
> paying the
> 2x costs that are required and that all our WGs will participate this
> time.  If I were to do anything less, I would expect a vote 
> from the SEC to remove me from my job for dereliction of duty.

While I didn't have to clean up the mess from London as you did, I
sympathize and appreciate your efforts in that regard.
That was, however, an interim, and while I tried to float a motion that
would have forced the "boycotting" groups to either meet in London as
the EC
had specified or forego an interim at an alternate location, as you're
that didn't fly (due to a ruling from Paul if I recall correctly ...)

Rome will be a plenary and I don't see how any WG/TAG could "boycott"
you put it) an 802 plenary ...

I believe that we need to find a way to do this - and enforce it - so
accurate projections/budgeting can be done and we don't end up "in a
This will require the will of a majority of the EC ... And I believe
that will exists. 
> While you may think there is overwhelming support from IEEE-SA for nNA
> venues, I have been receiving strong cautionary messages from IEEE
> Contract Procurement that it is a minefield out there and very easy to
> get your organization into a serious bind with nNA venues.  So I have
> some extra incentive to be especially prudent in pursuing these deals.
> I would hope that you would appreciate that.

I appreciate prudence and was not aware of "strong cautionary messages
IEEE Contract Procurement" ... Can you share with me (privately is fine,
you prefer, in my role as a member of the BoG) who is giving you such
cautionary messages?  

Again, I observe that *many* other organizations routinely meet in
venues as a matter of policy and their normal way of doing business -
apparently without any disastrous consequences.

> So can we please cooperate in trying to be reasonably responsible in
> making this decision and refrain from making inflammatory accusations
> ???  I believe we are all trying to do what is right for the good of
> IEEE-802.  Let's try to work together with that goal in mind, please.

By all means we need to cooperate and make responsible decisions.  And,
my comments were taken in an offensive way by you, that was not my
so please accept my sincere apology for any offense it caused you.

It's just that it seems to me that you've already gotten a solid
reaction from .11, .15., .18, .19, .20, .21, and .22, along with Tony
for .1
(.16 was somewhat pro-Rome, but given the "vote as many times as you
approach, it seems that the .16 position is based on a different
than "Rome or Vancouver?"  I don't recall if Bob Grow has responded for
or not. And John responded that he preferred Rome, but had no interim at
which to poll his members.  

To me, that, combined with our policy goal indicates that we should do
is required to get the best deal possible in Rome and move forward
based on earlier pre-registration, earlier steps up in meeting fees, and
starting point attendance-wise that's conservative with some incentives
negotiated into the contract if we exceed commitments, rather than
if we set the bar too high and fall way short).  There's also the
that someone floated about a 2 tier registration fee ... With a "meeting
space and F&B surcharge" for anyone who doesn't book in our room block
the meeting hotel (as long as space is available, at least).

It seems to me that we need to look at creative ways to make it happen
(recognizing that it's inherently going to cost more), while minimizing
risks of outrageous penalties.


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