Thread Links Date Links
Thread Prev Thread Next Thread Index Date Prev Date Next Date Index

Re: [802SEC] Membership rules

Bob-

RE:
I find nothing that prevents evaluation of attendance or ballot participation at any time. This was the fundamental principal in my suggestion that a Chair could grant membership and subsequently remove a participant "by rule”, not by “whim” of the Chair, by evaluating attendance after opening of a WG ballot.  Loss of WG membership does not remove one from a ballot group because we are to be consistent with SASB SA ballot procedures.  Even if the evaluation of the attendance credit were specified, without the ability to remove membership by rule, after the Chair grants membership to someone, a granted membership would would be removed — not when the person granted membership stops contributing to the WG, retires, etc.

Thank you !
That is what I was trying to point out during the meeting.
Apparently ineffectively
The chair can, by rule, examine the voter roles immediately after the WG ballot has opened,
purge those who have not met the attendance requirement even if the WG Chair gave them
membership only 2 weeks earlier.
The second of the above pair of exercises would have no impact on the WG Ballot Balloting Group
and no long term effect on the WG membership.
You point out that that the evaluation of membership under the normal powers of the chair can be done at any time.
Doing so is "by rule" not "by whim."

Geoff


On Saturday, October 8, 2022, 12:44:22 PM PDT, ROBERT GROW <bobgrow@cox.net> wrote:


David, Jon,

I believe the current wording fixed a number of ambiguities I found in the previous version.  (I frequently have problems mentally using the more ambiguous rules in place for decades rather than the current rules.)  A couple of corner cases using real dates follow (today, the last four plenaries being Jul21, Nov21, Mar22, and Jul22 with interims on the other odd numbered months):

1.  Credited Attendance is only Jul22 and Sep22 (interim) — That participant is eligible to become a member in Nov22. because of the definition of recent interim.  

WG P&P 4.2 includes: "A declaration of intent to the Chair of the Working Group may also be required in a Working Group to gain membership. Membership starts at the third Plenary Session attended by the participant.”  

Ambiguity for this case is linked to how the WG implements the “declaration of intent”.  For example it could be an issue for a WG letter ballot opened during the plenary week.  The solution—don’t do that.  The second ambiguity is “Plenary Session attended by the participant” does not specify WG attendance, only Plenary Session attendance — be careful in how a WG implements “declaration of intent".

The WG P&P rules clearly separate attendance and Credited Attendance thus allowing the new member to vote during the 3rd plenary.

2.  Credited Attendance only in Jul21 and Sep21.  The participant is eligible to become a member in Nov22, and would be able to vote during the Plenary Session.  A WG ballot initiated during the plenary would include the participant as a member of the ballot group (assuming optional requesting membership requirements are met).  A WG ballot initiated after the Nov22 plenary would not include the new member as the Jul21 and Sep21 are no longer within the window of the last four plenary meetings.  So, the membership lasted last than one week.  

The LMSC OM 5.1 says a plenary is bounded by the Opening and Closing LMSC meeting.  (A logical interpretation would be the call to order of the Opening LMSC meeting and adjournment of the Closing LMSC meeting.)  To me, that means the window for the “last four” Plenary Sessions moves at adjournment of the closing EC meeting.


I find nothing that prevents evaluation of attendance or ballot participation at any time. This was the fundamental principal in my suggestion that a Chair could grant membership and subsequently remove a participant "by rule”, not by “whim” of the Chair, by evaluating attendance after opening of a WG ballot.  Loss of WG membership does not remove one from a ballot group because we are to be consistent with SASB SA ballot procedures.  Even if the evaluation of the attendance credit were specified, without the ability to remove membership by rule, after the Chair grants membership to someone, a granted membership would would be removed — not when the person granted membership stops contributing to the WG, retires, etc.

—Bob


On Oct 8, 2022, at 8:34 AM, Roger Marks <r.b.marks@ieee.org> wrote:

David,

I share your understanding, which I think is implicitly obvious from the text. We’ve always mentioned the “third Plenary Session attended,” but this has never been exact. For example, it intentionally avoids the word “participated” since participation in the third session does not enter the calculation. But  membership could, as you indicate, start at the second Plenary Session attended by the participant. It could also start on the tenth Plenary Session attended; for example, if earlier ones didn’t result in participation credit. 

It might be clearer to say "Membership starts at a Plenary Session attended once the membership requirement has been established and remains current.” This is based on the text earlier in the paragraph about “establishing” membership.

Cheers,

Roger
On Oct 8, 2022, 7:38 AM -0600, Jon Rosdahl <jrosdahl@ieee.org>, wrote:
I have always understood this rule to be unambiguous.
" Membership starts at the third Plenary Session"
so P1+P2+P3 starts voting rights.
An Interim can be substituted for either P1 or P2, as membership starts on a Plenary 3,
This leads to P1+P2+P3 or P1+I1+P3 or  I1+P2+P3 as options to gain membership.
" one of the two Plenary Sessions"  would not be the third.
My understanding,
Jon
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Rosdahl                             Engineer, Senior Staff
 IEEE 802 Executive Secretary   Qualcomm Technologies, Inc.
office: 801-492-4023                  10871 North 5750 West
cell:   801-376-6435                   Highland, UT 84003

A Job is only necessary to eat!
A Family is necessary to be happy!!


On Fri, Oct 7, 2022 at 12:57 PM Law, David <dlaw@hpe.com> wrote:
Dear IEEE 802 EC,

While subclause 4.2 'Voting Membership' of the IEEE 802 Working Group P&P includes the text 'Membership starts at the third Plenary Session attended by the participant.', it also includes the text '... one credited recent Working Group or Task Group Interim Session may be substituted for one of the two Plenary Sessions required to establish membership.'.

I have always interpreted the latter to also apply to the former. That is, if an interim is substituted for a plenary in the two out of the last four plenary attendance calculation, the same interim is substituted for a plenary in the third plenary attendance calculation. In addition, and please correct me if I'm wrong, if that was not the case there is no point being able to substitute an interim for a plenary when calculating the two out of the last four as 'Membership starts at the third Plenary Session attended by the participant.' on its own requires attendance at two plenaries to gain membership.

I'd like to confirm that my above interpretation is correct, and if so, suggest we might consider an update to the rules to make this clear.

Best regards,
  David

----------
This email is sent from the 802 Executive Committee email reflector.  This list is maintained by Listserv.

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-SEC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-SEC&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-SEC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-SEC&A=1


To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-SEC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-SEC&A=1

To unsubscribe from the STDS-802-SEC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=STDS-802-SEC&A=1